Is artillery too weak? (Full Version)

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Mangudai -> Is artillery too weak? (6/8/2004 6:51:53 AM)

mdhiel claimed that most of the casualties in WWII were inflicted by artillery. This sounds believable to me. I always thought the artillery in this game is too weak. For a while I turned up the preferences for artillery vs soft to about 120%, but now I use 100% because that's standard for PBEM. The really big bore guns get the job done, but the small guns never kill anybody. You'ld imagine that 60mm and 80mm mortars actually killed a lot of people historically, but not in this game.

Another question: is pummelling a tank with 60mm mortars just to supress it considered gamey?



KG Erwin -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/8/2004 7:18:30 AM)

Wrong, Mangudai. Mortars at ranges from 6 hexes under are definite infantry killers, and they can disable light tanks or force the crew to bail. Even the light 50mm "knee mortars" can force a light tank crew to bail under sustained fire.

The moral is, mortars are kings for on-board arty in 8.2. The king of Mortars is the Brit 3-inch, with an HE kill of 7 and a warhead of 5. These values were confirmed from research done by the OOB team.

Combine these with in-depth off-board 105 & 155mm fire used judiciously, and you will reduce casualties.

I will strongly recommend using ammo discipline.

If you buy a battery, turn one gun off before assigning them to a preparatory fire.

With 8.2, you will have less ammo for those off-board heavy guns.

You're a single battalion in combat--your regimental or divisional artillery assets MUST be used with care, as they are limited. I cannot emphasize this enough.



Hunpecked -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/8/2004 9:13:37 PM)

Mortar effectiveness in SPWAW varies with the situation. I recall one game (my Germans vs AI Polish) when my 50mm mortars literally massacred several infantry squads. They were stacked and my FO had direct LoS, so it was an ideal situation. [:D]

In another game (my Germans vs AI Soviets) I had several baled-out enemy crews in full view of my FO; my 81mm mortars got half a dozen kills that day. [:D]

On rare occasions I've seen my mortars damage or kill enemy AFVs, and I've lost some of mine to enemy mortar fire as well (once even to FRIENDLY fire!). [:@]

Mostly, though, mortars and light artillery are better at suppression than inflicting casualties in SPWAW. That's as it should be, I think, because the game doesn't generally model situations in which artillery should be good at killing in real life. I suspect many historical casualties were suffered in set-piece bombardments that lasted many times longer than a typical SPWAW game, or in day-in day-out harrassment and interdiction fire. I also assume some of those historical casualties were incurred by service troops, which don't even exist in SPWAW. I would expect reduced arty effectiveness in short mobile actions, which are the ones usually portrayed in the game.

Finally, targeting an AFV with mortar fire can't really be considered "gamey" if the AI does it. The only thing worse than having a tank routed by AI mortar fire is LOSING the sucker to a 50mm bomb down the commander's hatch! [sm=00000018.gif]

On the other hand it is "gamey" in the sense that it was probably very hard to do in real life; given the difficulties of coordinating fire in WW II, I assume effective indirect bombardment of moving vehicles was generally a matter of luck.



Tequila -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/9/2004 1:58:14 AM)

Yikes, too weak? If anything I think arty is just a wee bit overpowered in this game. I don't use mine to cause casulties but certainly the big bore 155mm and large rockets will do that. I stick to a combo of light mortars for immediate and accurate suppression, medium mortar for suppression and smoke and 105mm howitzer for long-range smoke and some suppression.

With that combination you can overcome almost any situation. I use the light mortars to lob over my guys one hex with accuracy to suppress enemy infantry in close quarters. I use medium mortars on ATG and AA and other obstacles that aren't close to my guys and if that doesn't work I use their smoke and go around, same for 105mm howitzer only with greater range :)

One thing I learned playing Watchword Freedom and Stalingrad against the endless hordes of russian infantry is to suppress with mortar and let loose the real infantry killers which for me are (1) flame tanks (2) large calibre assault guns like the StuH42 (3) AA guns. If all you can do is pin infantry and not route that's ok too because it allows your assault guns to get with a couple hexes to use indirect fire which is devasting to infantry packed in tight with that kind of splash damage. If you tried that with 150+mm arty you'd hit your guys in the process. [sm=00000002.gif]



Svennemir -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/9/2004 6:56:10 PM)

quote:

Another question: is pummelling a tank with 60mm mortars just to supress it considered gamey?


Not by most people I guess, but personally I don't like the this is possibility. It shouldn't be possible to have 0.1 (or 0.0) delay bombardments hitting as soon as the turn ends (it should wait till the enemy has had the chance to move), because a quickly moving vehicle shouldn't reliably be suppressed by indirect fire unless this fire covers a very large area (and 60mm mortar fire covers about 1 hex).



Kristo Vaher -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/9/2004 10:25:17 PM)

Artillery in real life isnt for infantry killing. Its for suppression purposes. The real kills do occur during the first minute of the strike most, if the target is unaware of possible artillery. The only way in real life to get infantry kills in numbers is a good vision and mortars. Heavy artillery of course kill loads, if hit the mark, but usually youd need the wholearea full of squads to do that.

Anyways, this is from the experience I got during the service in the army. When you get artillery fire upon you, the first thing squad does is find cover to protect itself from debris and other crap those big guns may come up with. And form cover, youd need a quite a good shot to kill the unit. Its almost impossible in trenches and protected bunkers. Most artillery kills dont come from the exact blast at all in the war, but if it rains artillery from loads of high caliber mammoths then there can be high kills.



EricDerKönig (HMB) -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/13/2004 8:40:38 AM)

quote:

Another question: is pummelling a tank with 60mm mortars just to supress it considered gamey?


Nah, humans will move their tank or kill your mortars, or something equally devious, and the AI is just stupid and deserves what it gets. [;)]

Besides, its always fun to paralyze a King Tiger with light mortars, then take them out with a flame tank or bazooka.



Svennemir -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/13/2004 8:00:20 PM)

quote:

Nah, humans will move their tank or kill your mortars, (...)


No - 0.1 delay mortar fire is instantaneous, so no one will move their tank.



Marek Tucan -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/16/2004 11:01:12 AM)

As it was already said, depends on situation...

I am now playing SPMBT, with a bit different arty model than SPWAW (for example no instant barrages, and so on)... I find there the artillery just great to suppress enemy infantry and vehicles, and from time to time to disable/kill vehicles (recently I got a T-62 kill of direct top hit from 155mm shell - that seems real to me). But DPICM ammo is a real killer, altough the MLRS is way too overpowered against armour (in game, pen. of 600mm, in reality 100mm of steel)...

What I prefer to do i to make concentrated attacks of large tubes, if I want to kill something, or constant shelling of lighter guns to provide massive suppression.



Poopyhead -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/16/2004 10:23:54 PM)

According to the manual, if you have a FO with a line of sight to the target, then you can cause double the casualties. I don't know if this means double the suppression, too. This might make your barrages more effective, though. Also, I don't think that artillery should be used as a "meat grinder". With a few well placed barrages you can break the morale of your opponents' force and win quickly.



plloyd -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (6/17/2004 1:41:33 AM)

This thread gets recycled every year or two, so I suppose it is about time again. It is true that artillery causes most of the casualties in WW2. It is equally true that we are playing short engagements with heavy direct fire applications. pregame bombardments are 30 seconds, not 15 to 120 minutes. Most casulties caused by artillery, in reality, were caused outside of the game. Imagine a game where deployment lines are far apart, most units will not be moving, and lots of OB artillery. Play this scenario 5 to 20 times for each battle in a campaign. Most casualties will be cause by arillery, just like really happened.



Mangudai -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/9/2004 6:23:42 AM)

Oh my God! I just figured out what Gunny Erwin was talking about with having your mortars within 6 hexes. I'm playing a PBEM USMC v Jap game right now and both of us have light mortars real close to the front line, about 3 hexes. When multiple squads retreat into the same hex I hit 'em with 60's and almost every round that drops gets kills. I think I got 9 kills in one turn with a 60mm [X(]! And that was not a complete fluke, similar things are happening on both sides.

Range is obviously critical, what about LOS? I think in this example a member of the same company as the mortar had LOS, however I called in the arty using my FO who is way in the back.



ILCK -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/9/2004 4:17:54 PM)

Too weak or not I just don't find much use for the stuff so tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I don't use it for smoke. As the Germans I don't want smoke- long range is about my only friend right now.

It seems like when I call it is might or might not show up <-- I need to reall re-read the manual on this area.

When it does show up I don't know that is is worth 100+ support points. I feel better using those points on another platoon of tanks since they seem much more useful on the ground than the arty does.



Belisarius -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/9/2004 4:47:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

Too weak or not I just don't find much use for the stuff so tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I don't use it for smoke. As the Germans I don't want smoke- long range is about my only friend right now.

It seems like when I call it is might or might not show up <-- I need to reall re-read the manual on this area.

When it does show up I don't know that is is worth 100+ support points. I feel better using those points on another platoon of tanks since they seem much more useful on the ground than the arty does.


s u p p r e s s i o n

Can't beat artillery here, it's worth all it's money.

You use smoke to deny the enemy angles of attack on your flanks, not to hide your approach. If there's static enemy positions, smoke them. Nothing eliminates an ATG so fast as a 81mm mortar with a few smoke rounds.

HE barrages is used to prepare ground. I use them immediately before I go in. There's no use to pummel an area and then leave it alone for three turns. Plan where you want to go, then get your units into ready positions, call in the artillery and wait for it to land. Preferrably you should enter the area the same turn or next turn after the barrage.



plloyd -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/9/2004 5:14:28 PM)

Watch your lead times. Lead time in the first 1/3 of the turn ar good for defense (.1 or 1.1 turns and such). This makes onboard mortars very handy. Late turn lead times are more offensive. The rounds fall after rallying, just before you move out. Smoke is good for blinding fire from your flank. Smoking to the front of an attack is only useful for when you should not have been attacking there in first place. Most of all, any lead time above .3 turns requires a bit of planning, don't start a fight without one!



Belisarius -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/10/2004 12:55:45 AM)

good point, plloyd.

ILCK, read the excellent artillery management - T.O.T thread that can be found at the top of this subforum. There's tons to learn and will tell you most you need to know about delay times.



ILCK -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/11/2004 5:17:32 PM)

Read it, still don't entirely get it so I'm gonna run a practice with those notes in hand to try and get a better feel for how all the various factors affect arty.



KG Erwin -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/12/2004 2:10:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mangudai

Oh my God! I just figured out what Gunny Erwin was talking about with having your mortars within 6 hexes. I'm playing a PBEM USMC v Jap game right now and both of us have light mortars real close to the front line, about 3 hexes. When multiple squads retreat into the same hex I hit 'em with 60's and almost every round that drops gets kills. I think I got 9 kills in one turn with a 60mm [X(]! And that was not a complete fluke, similar things are happening on both sides.

Range is obviously critical, what about LOS? I think in this example a member of the same company as the mortar had LOS, however I called in the arty using my FO who is way in the back.


Doncha love the company commander's "personal artillery"? This is why my standard 1942 core force USMC battalion has four 81s and nine 60s (the actual 1942 battalion had six, increased to nine in 1943). I also buy one or two more with support points, along with six to ten batteries of 105s or 155s.

As for LOS, I click on the mortars themselves to order their fire--if they're in contact, they usually respond at the end of the same turn, with deadly accuracy. Of course, I play with C & C OFF.



ILCK -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/12/2004 2:28:12 AM)

I think, after a trail rn, my artillery issues were two fold:

1. My core was too small. I didn't use nearly all the point allocated to me at the start thinking I wanted the flexibility of the support points. That meant that I really needed the forces bought with support points as opposed to using them for...support.

2. I didn't have an FO. This is related to issue #1 since it cost 100+ pts for an FO. Should have had an FO in my core to begin with so it is always available.

Still not good with arty but getting better, I'll restart and really make the Soviets pay this time.



KG Erwin -> RE: Is artillery too weak? (7/12/2004 4:05:05 AM)

ILCK, on the rare occasions I play as Germans I go with the 150s. Mind you, this is aginst the AI, with rarity turned off. The fact is that the Germans in WWII never did that well with artillery, even though the experiences related by the veterans in "Band of Brothers" simply showed how terrifying being under an artillery barrage was.

The masters of accurate arty fire were by far the Americans, with Russians being a close second by dint of their propensity to use massive numbers of barrels.

As the Germans, I think that the use of close support air power (at least from 1939-41), is what made all the difference. As a general observation, I also believe this is one of the reasons why German ground units get such high combat ratings in SPWaW and other games--it is an abstracted value-add-on of their domination of the air in the Blitzkrieg era.

I don't want to start a debate, but the artillery simply couldn't keep up with the rapidity of the German armored and motorized units. The Luftwaffe was indeed the flying artillery that accompanied them in the restricted spaces of Western Europe. The shortcomings of this approach were amply demonstrated beginning in Operation Barbarossa, and only got worse as the war progressed.



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