quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
The more i look at this the more I am convinced that single mortars at comapany level is the way to go.. the 46mm, 50mm, 2 inch, and arguably the 60mm have a greater chance of being used in the direct fire mode, which in and of itself is an arguement for a single tube unit ... the Historical TO&E for most nations supports the 1 per platoon or 3 per company distribution in more cases than not, and doctrine usually supports the distribution of the Heavy Weapons platoon assets among the maneuver platoons. The 9 mortars per company is not historically supporatble. The 3 mortar per platoon structure definately messes with the already limited transportation situation . And massing the 3 mortars in a company pool interfers with the Platoon XO unit calling the fire of the Platoon Mortar. 9 Mortars organic to the company , apropiately priced is going to raise the cost of purchasing an organic company by about 150 points on average.
I advocate returning the 46mm, 50mm, and 2 inch infantry mortars to the version 6.1 format and possibly making the US 60mm mortar an single tube attached to platoon in the same fashion, And focus the efforts to create a doctinally sound "Mortar Battery" unit at Bn/ Weapons company and above issue.. and work from there bearing in mind that a transportaion unit capable hauling such a large structure may have to be created ... if that is problematic ..then lets just go to single tube for all onboard mortars. and live with the ahistorical aspects of being able to direct single tubes balanced by the restictions inherient with C&C.

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quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Brian ?? where are you getting your TO&E info ??
There is an " Offical TO&E" in the Steel Panthers Folder Done by Scott Grasse .. I only mention this because it looks like you are trying to make this a little harder than it needs to be.. it looks like you are trying to Attach the Bn's Heavy Weapon Company Assets to the Platoons in some cases with those 81mm mortars .. which is fine by me .. but i just wanted to make sure thats what you wanted to do .. there is a case or two where a Company had some 81mm mortars of their own .. Panzer Greniders had 81mm's but no 50mm for example only two to the whole company and not assigned to the manuver platoon ..
I think if you look at the TO&E for the Germans the rule of thumb is going to be
3 50mm mortars at company level ( 1 per platoon ) and 6 81mm at Bn Level Hvy Weapons company for Bn up to end 1943 for a total in the whole Bn of 9 50mm and 6 81mm.s OR
After 43 2 81mm per company total and some 120mm at BN in the heavy weapon CO usually 4 plus some flak guns for a total of 6 81's and 4 120's for the Whole Bn.
if you have other sources fine .. but it looks like you might be trying to correct the mulitples without soild info so I just wanted you to know if you didn't ..there are TO&E's in the Steel Panther WAW Folder .. you need adobe acrobat to open them ..hope this helps

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quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Ok Brian I just went back and looked at some of the other Nations you have posted ..
As a general rule a Infantry Company will have a total of 3 infantry mortars ... thats either 1 per platoon OR a seperate Hvy Platoon that has 3 infantry mortars ... NOT both .. total of only three in the whole company..
It looks like you are trying to do a little of both in many cases a couple 50mm/2in in each platoon AND a Heavy Platoon with more mortars for totals of 8 or 9 mortars to a company..
Things got a little crazy with this triple infantry mortar at platoon level and folks might be getting the idea that a company had 9 or 12 mortars or something ..it ain't so .. honest
Just three 50mm/2in/46GL/Knee mortars total for the whole company, either assigned 1 per platoon OR a heavy Platoon with all three in one unit ... this holds true across almost all nations.. some companies will have 2 81mm instead of the 3 50mm , in this case the 81's are best modeled by having them in the heavy weapons platoon only and the Infantry Platoons have NO mortar.
The Heavy weapons Company for the Battalion will have at most 6 81mm or 4 120/4.2 heavy mortars usually in Sections of 2 mortars each .. these could concevably be farmed out to The 3 Companys but they should not be inculded in the Companies themselves .. this too holds true as a general rule for almost all nationalities ..
The way things are currently, most Companys in the game are going to end up with more Mortars than a Battalion and are going to be very very expensive .

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quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
Brian,
I played Ger vs. Pol with your mortar mods. There seems to be not much difference, perhaps its the way that I play. I did note that Pol 81mm's shooting at a vehicle at 10 hex first shot at 50% to hit. I replayed and got something like 27%, 33%, 47%, 47% 47%. The mortars have 0 accuracy. These % seem incompatable with the 0. That is to get a 50% I should need to be at 3 range IIRC. This seems a game engine question not a OOB issue though. I need to run some tests over the holidays. Happy Holidays to you and all!

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quote:

Originally posted by Brian Price: The alternatives are to either stick with the stock v7.0 solution and have bad accuracy from all but the first tube in each unit *or* to use the v1.2 Mortar Mod solution and have a greatly increased chance of losing mortar units to weapon's breakdown. Please let me know which you prefer.

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quote:

Originally posted by Brian Price:
On a seperate note, due to the limitations of the german OOB for units as well as the increased weapon breakdown rate with the v1.2 mortar mod OOBs - I've been investigating a possible single tube per unit solution that does not result in a huge C&C problem - depending, of course, on the exact playing style and unit mixture. Here's how it works for medium and large mortars (note that light mortars have slightly different issues involved): #1 All mortars are restored to their v6.1 unit configuration *but* retain the v7.0 cost adjustments (scaled for number of tubes). #2 A new (if necessary and sometimes hidden from purchase screen depending upon the individual OOB) formation is created for each class of mortar. This formation is a platoon with a single mortar unit. #3 Non artillery formations which previously had multi-tube sections of mortars attached will have them removed. #4 Sections, batteries, and platoon formations of mortars are now actually companies of the appropriate number of single unit 'platoons' led by a forward observer. This means that directing fire using the C&C points of the mortar itself (self directed fire) has the same ratio as did v6.1. In addition, the increased rank of the FO increases the C&C points available for the FO to call in fire on a point within LOS. (albiet 'recharge' time is longer than the equivalent v6.1 situation). There are some unresolved issues though - the cost and rarity of forward observers may need adjusted to compensate, and this may well need to be dependant on each nation's artillery doctrine. The main benefit of going this route is that we get correct rof, correct accuracy, correct weapons breakdown rate, and fairly close to v6.1 C&C cost ratios (again depending on artillery mix and playing style). The alternatives are to either stick with the stock v7.0 solution and have bad accuracy from all but the first tube in each unit *or* to use the v1.2 Mortar Mod solution and have a greatly increased chance of losing mortar units to weapon's breakdown. Please let me know which you prefer. Thanks,
Brian [ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]

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quote:

Originally posted by pbear:

Brian what effect in the C&C commands, and indrect fire does using the two man recon section as the HQ unit, for the mortars platoons, have as opposed to a modified FO?
I have been using this solution with every mortar unit being made up of single tubes and a HQ section(scout section) for company level platoons HQ's. This is very useful since it keeps the platoon slot open for re-assigning heavy weapons between rifle platoon and heavy weapons platoons.

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