Rail and road movement

Rail and road movement (Full Version)

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goodwood -> Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 12:19:10 PM)
Historically a lot more man and materiel was by rail than road, when rail was available. say if you wanted to move a **** load of stuff from melbourne to Brisbane ( overland) eg 2 Divs, does the AI move it by rail or road when both are available rail is more efficent than road, there much quicker. is there a choice?

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 5:01:42 PM)
quote: Historically a lot more man and materiel was by rail than road, when rail was available. say if you wanted to move a **** load of stuff from melbourne to Brisbane ( overland) eg 2 Divs, does the AI move it by rail or road when both are available rail is more efficent than road, there much quicker. is there a choice? Rail, Road, Trail, Nothing ... all have different speeds. getting around in Oz takes time even by rail. No choice here, the AI automatically follows the fastest route.

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 7:33:15 PM)
I found the move speeds in UV on the slow side. 4 miles a day on an trail hex was IMO way too slow.

hithere -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 8:16:33 PM)
i have to agree there. I was in the light infantry. as a company we could move about 15 to 20 miles aday. i've never moved in anything more than a Batt. I guess that a division through a jungle trail would be slower. but 4 miles is pretty slow

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 8:42:10 PM)
I would say a regiment (the largest unit in UV) could move at least one mile in one hour on a jungle trail. Lets say they sleep 8 hours...and take four half hour rest breaks. that would give them 14 hours to march. So I would say 13-16 miles a day would be a good figure. I am also assuming that they have horses or trucks to move the heavier guns. In one of my games I move Kanga force from the interior of New Guinea to PM. 150 miles to march...took them a month and a half to make it [8\|]. Their heaviest unit was an 81mm mortar which can be broken down into loads and moved just as fast as the rest of the walking speeds. Those guys were in superb shape. They should at least be able to hit 20 miles a day. I hope they fixed this in WiTP. Sea movement is the only viable way to move in UV.

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 10:27:33 PM)
quote: I am also assuming that they have horses or trucks to move the heavier guns. I believe the Americans were the very first army in the history of the world to actually have sufficent lift capacity to call themselves motorized and that certainly was not in the jungles of the Pacific. Move speeds under malaria conditions in jungle might even be too fast when you consider that the size of the unit moving is not considered.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 11:16:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager I would say a regiment (the largest unit in UV) could move at least one mile in one hour on a jungle trail. Lets say they sleep 8 hours...and take four half hour rest breaks. that would give them 14 hours to march. So I would say 13-16 miles a day would be a good figure. I am also assuming that they have horses or trucks to move the heavier guns. In one of my games I move Kanga force from the interior of New Guinea to PM. 150 miles to march...took them a month and a half to make it [8\|]. Their heaviest unit was an 81mm mortar which can be broken down into loads and moved just as fast as the rest of the walking speeds. Those guys were in superb shape. They should at least be able to hit 20 miles a day. I hope they fixed this in WiTP. Sea movement is the only viable way to move in UV. I think you are being far too optimistic in your assessments. A Roman Legion could make 20 miles a day on Roman roads with a force designed and enured to traveling "shanks mare" for a lifetime. These "trails" in UV/WITP are just that..., trails. One man wide paths winding through very rough and generally hilly to mountainous terrain in truely miserable conditions. They weren't built by the National Parks Service for weekend hikers, but by natives in small groups seeking the path of least resistance. To cross a 60 mile hex they might wind around along a 180 mile long course. Distance cannot be measured "as the crow flies". Now you have a possibly quite large group trying to make progress down a narrow trail. Every slip or hold-up stops the whole column. And men keep suffering from accidents, snake bite, Dengue Fever. Malaria, and other debilitations which mean they have to be carried or helped along. In general, 4 miles a day for a combat force is not unreasonable in such circumstances, and they will probably need a full day's rest for every three on the march.

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 11:18:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag quote: I am also assuming that they have horses or trucks to move the heavier guns. I believe the Americans were the very first army in the history of the world to actually have sufficent lift capacity to call themselves motorized and that certainly was not in the jungles of the Pacific. Move speeds under malaria conditions in jungle might even be too fast when you consider that the size of the unit moving is not considered. They would have trucks in areas like Noumea and Australia. In other areas they would have horses or mules to artillary broken into loads as well as ammunition From reading about New Guinea, Burma and Guadalcanal I have read that companies and Batallions could move through rugged jungle at about one mile every two hours. So on something of a trail I figure a column not under enemy attack could move about 1 mph. In Australia they would have trucks to move and could probably average 30 miles an hour or so. Yet movement between bases is extremly slow. It gives the Japanese a huge advantage since it takes so long to reinforce bases under attack. The only viable way is to use sea movement which is impossible if the attacker has air superiority. The slow movement is one of the most unrealistic aspects of UV.

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 11:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager I would say a regiment (the largest unit in UV) could move at least one mile in one hour on a jungle trail. Lets say they sleep 8 hours...and take four half hour rest breaks. that would give them 14 hours to march. So I would say 13-16 miles a day would be a good figure. I am also assuming that they have horses or trucks to move the heavier guns. In one of my games I move Kanga force from the interior of New Guinea to PM. 150 miles to march...took them a month and a half to make it [8\|]. Their heaviest unit was an 81mm mortar which can be broken down into loads and moved just as fast as the rest of the walking speeds. Those guys were in superb shape. They should at least be able to hit 20 miles a day. I hope they fixed this in WiTP. Sea movement is the only viable way to move in UV. I think you are being far too optimistic in your assessments. A Roman Legion could make 20 miles a day on Roman roads with a force designed and enured to traveling "shanks mare" for a lifetime. These "trails" in UV/WITP are just that..., trails. One man wide paths winding through very rough and generally hilly to mountainous terrain in truely miserable conditions. They weren't built by the National Parks Service for weekend hikers, but by natives in small groups seeking the path of least resistance. To cross a 60 mile hex they might wind around along a 180 mile long course. Distance cannot be measured "as the crow flies". Now you have a possibly quite large group trying to make progress down a narrow trail. Every slip or hold-up stops the whole column. And men keep suffering from accidents, snake bite, Dengue Fever. Malaria, and other debilitations which mean they have to be carried or helped along. In general, 4 miles a day for a combat force is not unreasonable in such circumstances, and they will probably need a full day's rest for every three on the march. It would be nice if we could get some actual figures on the fighting in New Guinea. If someone can prove that they did indeed move at those speeds then It would increase my enjoyment about that aspect of the game. I know New Guinea is one of the most rural places on earth. But I guess I had a vision of a trail that was more like a dirt road than anything.

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 11:51:15 PM)
quote: I know New Guinea is one of the most rural places on earth. But I guess I had a vision of a trail that was more like a dirt road than anything. Ever seen a trail go in a straight line for 60 miles? We call them highways, not trails. [:D]

Becket -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/12/2004 11:54:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager It would be nice if we could get some actual figures on the fighting in New Guinea. If someone can prove that they did indeed move at those speeds then It would increase my enjoyment about that aspect of the game. I know New Guinea is one of the most rural places on earth. But I guess I had a vision of a trail that was more like a dirt road than anything. Not New Guinea, but read Frank's Guadalcanal book and you can get a sense of the difficulty of marching through jungles in the South Pacific.

hithere -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 12:08:51 AM)
I was in Panama and defiantly understand that moving through the jungle is a pain. (black palm anyone?) still, I think 4 miles a day is a little slow. Of course some good points have been made. I guess if you tear through the jungle for 60 or so miles, I doubt if anyone would actually want to fight. Also, this is a pretty small thing with me in a pretty big game (and that was UV).

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 12:32:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Becket quote: ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager It would be nice if we could get some actual figures on the fighting in New Guinea. If someone can prove that they did indeed move at those speeds then It would increase my enjoyment about that aspect of the game. I know New Guinea is one of the most rural places on earth. But I guess I had a vision of a trail that was more like a dirt road than anything. Not New Guinea, but read Frank's Guadalcanal book and you can get a sense of the difficulty of marching through jungles in the South Pacific. Guadalcanal is one of the main battle I have read about. And the average summed up to be about 1 mile every two hours. So on a trail I would assume this speed would be doubled which led to my formula above. And even if jungle movement is right on par. Movement in Australia and Noumea is way too slow. These are rear area bases and should have an abundance of trucks to move men and material around.

sven6345789 -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 1:19:38 AM)
Regarding the Kokoda Trail, 4 miles a day is actually rather fast. this "trail" was about 1 meter wide at its best part. For long distances, it only existed on map. And you had to cross the Owen Stanley Range. of course you could travel faster, but the force reaching its target would probably not be able to fight anymore, having been weakened by malaria, mud (It almost always rained in this area and the mud was horrible) and supply problems, as the japanese were historically.

Becket -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 2:09:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager quote: ORIGINAL: Becket quote: ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager It would be nice if we could get some actual figures on the fighting in New Guinea. If someone can prove that they did indeed move at those speeds then It would increase my enjoyment about that aspect of the game. I know New Guinea is one of the most rural places on earth. But I guess I had a vision of a trail that was more like a dirt road than anything. Not New Guinea, but read Frank's Guadalcanal book and you can get a sense of the difficulty of marching through jungles in the South Pacific. Guadalcanal is one of the main battle I have read about. And the average summed up to be about 1 mile every two hours. So on a trail I would assume this speed would be doubled which led to my formula above. And even if jungle movement is right on par. Movement in Australia and Noumea is way too slow. These are rear area bases and should have an abundance of trucks to move men and material around. My understanding of "trail" is what Frank describes on the 'canal -- a jeep track of crushed vegetation (or worse) but at best a winding track. A good example might be the trails on the island of Kua'ai in Hawaii -- winding, rough, and hard to travel due to changes in elevation and trail condition. 6-8 miles on a normal march day (i.e., a march where you don't arrive exhausted) is realistic on those trails, so maybe New Guinea is like that? Again, I have no experience with the conditions on that island, so I just throw out comparisons.

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 2:21:05 AM)
Add the temperature, Add the rain. Add all the sickness. Now imagine the carry capacity of a man is 40 pounds to not die and you get a good picture of hell. Go search Buna on the web, you'll find some good stuff that will hellp you imagine what these poor farm boys from Iowa went though.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:18:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag Add the temperature, Add the rain. Add all the sickness. Now imagine the carry capacity of a man is 40 pounds to not die and you get a good picture of hell. Go search Buna on the web, you'll find some good stuff that will hellp you imagine what these poor farm boys from Iowa went though. AMEN Now ad in that a 60 mile trip across a hex might be more like 200 miles back-and- forth/up -and-down; and that you aren't talking about a few hikers but an organized military unit of several hundred (at least) lugging equipment and a "unit of fire" of ammo (if they want to accomplish anything) plus the incidental casualties along the way. This isn't a "walk in the woods", guys. Take a look at the time it took for the first Divi- sion the Japs landed on Guadalcanal to move itself into position to actually make it's attack. They had to "cut" their own trail b=part of the way, but still it gives an idea of just how difficult it is to move a unit in this type of terrain.

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:21:23 AM)
Points well taken I forgot about the high elevations 4 miles isnt as slow as I thought I cant imagine marching for 40 days and only making it 150 miles Must be pure hell I forgot about the elevations too I still havnt seen anyone address the movement in Australia and Noumea

goodwood -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:27:24 AM)
I do understand that land movement is a little generic, but you could move a couple divisions by road from Melbourne to Bris bane quicker than by ship. even with all the bogie changes because of the non standard rail gauges in Oz. In fact as military planner to large volumes of men and materiel up the east coast of Oz, rail would be my preference. Can't sink trains with torpedoes[:D] If my memory serves me correctly in UV it is much quicker to send stuff from MEL to BNE by ship. I think this is inacurate

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:32:37 AM)
Australia was the main supply base in the south Pacific 1000's of trucks from America and Britian as well as native Aussie vehicles were around. It wouldnt be too much of a stretch to assume that an entire division could be moved by truck. Noumea is the same situation. It was a major base and im going to assume that lots of trucks were sitting around. Yet...when I want to send something up to Koumac I have to create a TF and run the risk of some lucky IJN sub putting a torp into a transport.

goodwood -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:40:36 AM)
A military road Convoy Melbourne to Darwin take eight days how long would it take a ship?

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:46:41 AM)
Whats your problem with Oz & Froggy?

goodwood -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:48:46 AM)
sorry your comment has gone right over my head[&:] no probs with the Oz bit but Froggy?

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:49:52 AM)
Aimed at Fallschirmjager ... good thing it cleared your head [:D]

goodwood -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 3:56:11 AM)
Cool I have actually driven in a military convoy from mel to darwin. all sealed roads when I did it, but most of the roads in war time Oz would have been gravel, I think it would have been less injoyable exerience, and less so for the dopey dudes in the back, alot of dirt to eat[:D] My grammar and spelling yuk, its too early for a Sunday morning

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 4:00:38 AM)
Most of Oz has Rail and/or Road except for a few little places that were really off the beaten path. Noumea has road speed.

Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 4:00:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag Whats your problem with Oz & Froggy? Overland movement is still too slow. UV assumes that they would be walking. I am contending that they would have sufficient trucks to move them at a much quicker rater...especialy if the Japanese landed on the shore. In that case every vehicle that could be commandered would be taken to move men to repel the invasion. I guess I should play WiTP and test movement rates before passing judgement. But in UV I find travel in those two areas to be too slow.

goodwood -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 4:03:39 AM)
I have n't noticed but is there Rail in UV?

Mike Scholl -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 4:04:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: goodwood A military road Convoy Melbourne to Darwin take eight days how long would it take a ship? IS THIS A CURRENT FIGURE? Or based on the road net that existed in 1941? From what I've seen of war-time maps, getting to Darwin from almost anywhere was a real problem except by ship. I would agree that based on my experiance in UV the road movement rate up the east coast of Australia seems a bit slow. But one thing to remember when saying it shouldn't be that biG a deal to move a unit by land is cost. One liberty ship can move 10,000 tons of cargo from one port to another at about 8 kts per hour. It would take 4,000 2 and 1/2 ton trucks to move the same amount...requiring 8,000 truck personel and a lot of gas and rubber. Ships are MUCH MORE EFFICIENT. Trains are a good deal better than trucks if the engines and rolling stock are available to meet your needs. Eight trains carrying 1000 tons each and using 24 crewmen could do the job much cheaper than trucks. But ships are still more effecient if routing will allow it. That's why you see dozens of "ore ships" on the Great Lakes rather than hundreds of "ore trains" passing through Chicago.

Mr.Frag -> RE: Rail and road movement (6/13/2004 4:05:21 AM)
quote: I guess I should play WiTP and test movement rates before passing judgement. But in UV I find travel in those two areas to be too slow. 180 miles a day on rail, 120 on roads. It doesn't get better then that.

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