BAR-rifle (Full Version)

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BjörnR -> BAR-rifle (12/14/2001 11:48:00 PM)

can anyone tell me about this rifle. I couldn't find anything about it im my books.



Grumble -> (12/15/2001 12:02:00 AM)

Sure,
The Browning "Machine Rifle" later known in the US Army as, "Browning Automatic Rifle" BAR, was developed by Browning for WW1 combat. Designed to be fired from the hip in an advance, it was supposed to keep the enemy's head down while the rest of the squad crossed the trenches. It was never intended to be an LMG though it was used in that role. After the war, it became the squad's Squad Automatic Weapon and was issued up to 1 per fireteam, modified with a bipod for prone firing. It was also exported to Poland and Belgium. Since the US Army cancelled its contracts at the end of the war, Browning sold many of its surplus BARs to police units around the country (many mod'ed for semi-auto only). (In fact it was a BAR that helped bring down Bonnie and Clyde.)
It fired a standard .30" round, same as the M1 Garand, and was magazine fed with 20 round magazines. Deliverable ROF was fairly low, since it had no quick-change barrel, and the relatively low-capacity magazine meant frequent reloading. Nonetheless it remained in use until the late 1950s.



BjörnR -> (12/15/2001 12:21:00 AM)

thanks Grumble
Since it was used for such a long time it must have been a good gun. What was the main benefits from it?



Grumble -> (12/15/2001 4:25:00 AM)

It was reliable although quite heavy (14-16 lbs IIRC). Pretty much it was used because there was nothing else; research basically stopped after WW1, the Garand and Thompson were privately developed weapons.
The main benefit to the squad/fireteam was full automatic fire, in a standard caliber, making for easy resupply. Using AP rounds instead of ball, it could shred/penetrate light cover-quite useful.



AmmoSgt -> (12/15/2001 5:44:00 AM)

The main advantage of the BAR and why it lasted so long was that it was one of the few full auto weapons that was actually controlable in full auto fire .. it's relativly heavy weight coupled with it's moderate rate on fire made it very accurate in full auto mode.
The US tried to replicate this with the M-14 at an individual soldier level and later with the M-16 ..neither proved satisfactory in full auto mode ..Many experts tried very hard to return the M-16 to semi only and place a solid full auto weapon as the core of the squad .. The M-60, like almost all LMG was not the answer as it never came close to the BAR in controlablity in full auto ..and spray and pray replaced marksmanship..
The New versions of the M-16 with 3 round burst limits are a compromise and the new SAW's are just starting to appraoch the old BAR's controlability. This was a problem for every nation .. some tried to replace controlability with extreme high rates of fire like the MG-42 others tried heavier guns.. both caused weight/ carry problems.. either the gun or the ammo needed ...The BAR was the one happy medium ..the BREN and the Lewis Gun came a close second with the MP44 and AK 47 coming in third .. beyond that it takes sheer volume of fire to make up for the lack of control.



m10bob -> (12/15/2001 6:46:00 AM)

As ever,AmmoSgt is absolutely the weapon authority on this forum,(imho)..several of us have hefted this weapon and it was too ungainly for a small person,but if the soldier was over 5'10,and strong,it was a great suppression weapon in an era of bolt action rifles...It was actually effective for a longer range than the M1 Garand,and was only made obsolete by the era of massed auto-weapons...The major strength of all American small arms (except maybe the Johnson rifle),was the fact they could all be dropped,running,in mud,lost,and fire perfect when found weeks later..I.E.:they were reliable,robust,"combat condition" weapons which required no special "coddling" to fulfill their intended purpose,(unlike the early M16).....AmmoSgt may correct me,but as i recall the BAR had a 3 way selector switch for single fire,or 2 speeds of semi-auto fire..I personally have never felt the BAR's lethality or effectiveness was ever truly represented in SP..(just my humble opinion)....bob



AmmoSgt -> (12/15/2001 10:41:00 AM)

Bob three positions safe semi and full .. firepower is a tricky thing in this game .. in a couple of ways .. first you have the basic HE kill rating ( bad name for the concept , but close enough) the BAR is a 5 , however the convention is ( except for rifles) mulitple barrled weapons are not scaled up proportionally , so a 2x BAR is an 8 .. just like a 3x 15mm autocannon is not 3 times the single 15mm autocannon .. BUT thats just half the story, the other factore are Fire Control , Range Finder and Targeting .. In an infantry squad you can't work off just the squad automatic weapon , you have to work off the several weapons in the squad as an average AND you have to scale the values in a narrow range so they blend with everything from a bamboo spear to a 16 inch naval gun... by and large such a fine point as an individual weapons individual characteristic sorta has to be subsumed to the larger picture of the squads capability ..



GrinningDwarf -> (12/15/2001 11:11:00 PM)

Nobody's mentioned yet the fact that .30-06 is such an awesome round (it's used for big game here in the States), and to have that available in full auto!! Just another plus to the BAR. And I, according to a book I read about 20 years ago, Clyde Barrow actually died with a BAR in his hands. [ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: GrinningDwarf ]



AmmoSgt -> (12/16/2001 10:04:00 AM)

Grining I also thought that there would be a big difference in the Energy of the Different major Powers Rifle ammo when I was doing the weapons research for the Tiger team OOB scrub .. but it just ain't so ...
US 30-06 is 150 grain bullet going 2880 FPS
Brit .303 is 176 Grain at 2440 FPS
German 8mm is 227 Grain at 2045 FPS
Russian 7.62x54R is Nominally 172 Grain at about 2450 FPS ( a 147 Grain 2900 FPS sniper round and several MG rounds AP, Tracer, ect at different weights and speeds, and one helluva aircraft machine gun round that will blow up a regular rifle due to it's power abound )
All the nations had similar mixes on ammo and most everybody tended to reserve the AP for MG's and Auto rifles .. but when you actually sit down and do the math all the standard infantry ammo comes out within a couple of percent of each other ... even Italian Carcano and Various nations 6.5 and 7mm mauser ammo with the lighter and smaller bullets have higher Muzzle velocity ( FPS) so end up in the same range of energy in the end.. it was amazing how close these bullets came to being the same once they left the muzzel.



Mikimoto -> (12/16/2001 7:02:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
The main advantage of the BAR and why it lasted so long was that it was one of the few full auto weapons that was actually controlable in full auto fire .. it's relativly heavy weight coupled with it's moderate rate on fire made it very accurate in full auto mode.
The US tried to replicate this with the M-14 at an individual soldier level and later with the M-16 ..neither proved satisfactory in full auto mode ..Many experts tried very hard to return the M-16 to semi only and place a solid full auto weapon as the core of the squad .. The M-60, like almost all LMG was not the answer as it never came close to the BAR in controlablity in full auto ..and spray and pray replaced marksmanship..
The New versions of the M-16 with 3 round burst limits are a compromise and the new SAW's are just starting to appraoch the old BAR's controlability. This was a problem for every nation .. some tried to replace controlability with extreme high rates of fire like the MG-42 others tried heavier guns.. both caused weight/ carry problems.. either the gun or the ammo needed ...The BAR was the one happy medium ..the BREN and the Lewis Gun came a close second with the MP44 and AK 47 coming in third .. beyond that it takes sheer volume of fire to make up for the lack of control.
Incredible! I readed ALWAYS that the BAR was a hard solution cause the US never developed a LMG or GPMG good enough. A good weapon, but never a LMG, that's the reason they used two or three for squad... Tha`t's the reason Western soldiers always looted the magnificent MG-42... MG-34, MG-42 and Bren were, by far, better than the BAR in the light MG role...
The M-60 is based in the MG-42, as almost all modern LMG's. How many copies of the MG-42 have been maked? A lot... Do you know how many copies of the BAR are going around the World? Zero...
I can't believe what I read...



John Turesson -> (12/19/2001 1:26:00 AM)

Hej Björn.
(Hi to the rest of ya.)
Well the BAR happens to be copied in Sweden as
Kulsprutegevär (kg) m/21 and later improved with quick change barrel as kg m/37.
Aprox 20 000 built in Sweden.
They used 6.5*55mm ammo. Regarding the quality I'll say it's an AK4 (G3)with bipod and a kilo of extra weight in front of the magazine. Not the scientific answer... More stable than an assault rifle but the clumsiness is not worth the extra stability in fully auto IMHO. God Jul
Merry Christmas.
John



BjörnR -> (12/19/2001 3:01:00 AM)

John
Tack för upplysningen, då har jag skjutit med BAR, under min militärtjänst. Jag kommer ihåg snabbbytet av den upphettade pipan!
(Thanks for the information, then I have used the BAR during my military service. I remember changing the heated barrel)
God Jul



sven -> (12/21/2001 1:56:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by m10bob:
As ever,AmmoSgt is absolutely the weapon authority on this forum,(imho)..several of us have hefted this weapon and it was too ungainly for a small person,but if the soldier was over 5'10,and strong,it was a great suppression weapon in an era of bolt action rifles...It was actually effective for a longer range than the M1 Garand,and was only made obsolete by the era of massed auto-weapons...The major strength of all American small arms (except maybe the Johnson rifle),was the fact they could all be dropped,running,in mud,lost,and fire perfect when found weeks later..I.E.:they were reliable,robust,"combat condition" weapons which required no special "coddling" to fulfill their intended purpose,(unlike the early M16).....AmmoSgt may correct me,but as i recall the BAR had a 3 way selector switch for single fire,or 2 speeds of semi-auto fire..I personally have never felt the BAR's lethality or effectiveness was ever truly represented in SP..(just my humble opinion)....bob

Depends on the version. One version had two triggers. The last one had IIRC a switch.



tracer -> (12/21/2001 2:58:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Grining I also thought that there would be a big difference in the Energy of the Different major Powers Rifle ammo when I was doing the weapons research for the Tiger team OOB scrub .. but it just ain't so ...
US 30-06 is 150 grain bullet going 2880 FPS
Brit .303 is 176 Grain at 2440 FPS
German 8mm is 227 Grain at 2045 FPS
Russian 7.62x54R is Nominally 172 Grain at about 2450 FPS
I did the math and realized 30cal=7.62mm
I always thought the BAR had a larger round; though the higher muzzle velocity gave it a bigger punch. Really surprised that it also had the lightest round of the group.



john g -> (12/21/2001 3:52:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by tracer:
I did the math and realized 30cal=7.62mm
I always thought the BAR had a larger round; though the higher muzzle velocity gave it a bigger punch. Really surprised that it also had the lightest round of the group.
For non military rounds the 30-06 (7.62mm) round has a variety of bullet weights available. 180 grain is a common hunting slug. I have even seen handloading stats for bullets over 200 grains. Nowdays the 5.56mm (.223cal) is only 55 grains, and it still will kill and maim enemies just fine. Though I was warned that it was too light a round to go hunting for feral hogs with. One day I will equip my Enfield with a bayonet and take it out hog hunting. .303 will take down a hog, and the bayonet will have to make up for it not being semi-auto in case I get charged.
thanks, John.



AmmoSgt -> (12/21/2001 7:30:00 AM)

Ya got to be careful with those heavier than normal 30-06 rounds ( Normal being the 150 grain) if you fire them in a M-1 Garand they can bend or bust the recoil system .. and as odd as it seems the Garand will not opperate as a semi auto wity heavier rounds ... you will have to manualy function the bolt .. I know ..I have made that mistake ..
Those 5.56 55 Grain I believe are a little heavier these days M109 rounds , but at any rate they are much faster .. and since the basic formula "M (bullet weight) X VelocitySquared" you can see how the speed of the bullet has much more effect than the weight of the bullet .



sven -> (12/21/2001 7:39:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by john g:
For non military rounds the 30-06 (7.62mm) round has a variety of bullet weights available. 180 grain is a common hunting slug. I have even seen handloading stats for bullets over 200 grains. Nowdays the 5.56mm (.223cal) is only 55 grains, and it still will kill and maim enemies just fine. Though I was warned that it was too light a round to go hunting for feral hogs with. One day I will equip my Enfield with a bayonet and take it out hog hunting. .303 will take down a hog, and the bayonet will have to make up for it not being semi-auto in case I get charged.
thanks, John.
The Enfield is the fastest cycling bolt action service rifle in the world. A trained Austrailian Sniper was expected to be able to land 24 shots in a minute in a pinch. Saw a guy do it at the range once... blew my mind.



AmmoSgt -> (12/21/2001 10:27:00 AM)

The Record I believe for rapid fire bolt action established in an annual match dating from just after WW1 between the Lee-Enfield and the Mauser, and fire under the rules of unsupported any position at a Mansized Target at 300 yards is 38/42. Scoring is Number of Hits/ Number of shots in ONE MINUTE ... so the record is 38 HITS and 42 shots in one minute fired from a bolt action fed by 5 round striper clips ... Standard for training in the British Army was 15 Rounds per minute aimed fire... Much like the English Archers of old , and despite oppresive gun ownership in Britian ..Many British shooters still fire and practice to a set standard by the King, and that 15 shot minimum is still required to be classed as a target shooter... which under current English Law is considered one of the legitmate reasons to own a firearm. For some that Ranking is the only reason they are allowed to continue ownership of a Rifle, or so i understand things ..Local please up date me if I have erred.



TheOriginalOverlord -> (12/27/2001 8:53:00 PM)

Hello Gang, long time no see...
Just some info for you....
M1918 BAR had three positions (safe, semi, full auto)
M1918A2 had three also [safe, slow(~350rpm) and fast(~550rpm)] It is very easy to get off single shots on the "slow" setting. RE: M1s and their ammo...
M1 wartime ammo would have been M2 Ball (150grn)and M2 AP (165grn). Actually AP was considered the standard issue and Ball was relegated to training ammo only. It's not the weight of the bullet that effects the M1 it's the type of powder used. Most current commercial powder burns to slow and the pressure at the gas port is considerably higher than with norma "GI" ammo. Higher pressure = bent op-rods. Match ammo is 173grn ammo and functions perfectly in the M1, I have enve seen some shooters use the 190grn bullets for the 1000yd matches.
RE:5.56mm ammo,
M193 is 55grn for the M16/A1 series
M855 is 62grn for the M16A2 series
And yes the Enfield is one smooth cycling rifle



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