Question: Swasiskas and legal problems/Hakenkreuze und legale Probleme (Full Version)

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RolandRahn_MatrixForum -> Question: Swasiskas and legal problems/Hakenkreuze und legale Probleme (12/15/2001 3:54:00 PM)

Hi! First of all:
This is a question, not a critic. This question is mostly aimed towards Germans or people with some knowledge about the legal problems here. A German translation of this post follows at the end of the English text. Disclaimer to everyone who doesn't know SPWAW:
SPWAW is politically neutral and does in no way encourage the useage of swasiskas or similar symbols. However, due to the fact that it deals mainly with WWII, it contains some graphics (for example the picture of a ME-262) were a swasiska can be found. This might be a problem here in Germany. My question is:
Hypothetically, if a shop would try to import Matrix games here in Germany, wouldn't there be a legal problem due to the use of Swasiskas?
Even after copying the files from the "Iron Cross"-folder there are some graphics were a swasiska can be found (for example on the tail of the ME-262).
And, despite the fact that you can eliminate swasiskas on the map with the "Iron Cross"-folder, couldn't it lead to problems with the German authorities that it is at least *possible* to have swasiskas on the map?
And there is the problem with MCNA: On at least two occasisons, on the Iron Cross of the opening screen and on the awards-screen there are swasiskas on the ribbons.
It is obviously that this is just because of the historical context and it surely will not lead to any problem with authorities in the US or the UK (or other countries), but I fear that a German shop that would try to import these games would run into trouble.
What do you think?
And a question to the Matrix staff:
Are there additional swasiskas in MCLV (like the swasiskas in MCNA)?
To make one thing clear:
This is not a critic, just a question. I'm wondering why no shop here in Germany imports Matrix products and I ask myself if the use of swasiskas in the game might be one of the reasons? Kind regards,
Roland Hallo! Zunächst: Dies ist eine Frage, keine Kritik. Rein hypothetisch: Wenn ein Geschäft hier in Deutschland Matrix-Spiele importieren wollte, würde es dann nicht Probleme mit den Hakenkreuzen geben?
Selbst nach kopieren der Dateien aus dem "Iron Cross"-Ordner gibt es an einigen stellen noch Hakenkreuze, zum Beispiel auf der Heckflosse der Messerschmitt 262.
Und, auch wenn man die Hakenkreuze auf der Landkarte eleminieren kann, könnte es nicht Probleme geben weil es zumindest möglich ist, auf der Landkarte Hakenkreuze zu haben?
Und es könnte weitere Probleme mit MCNA geben:
An mindestens zwei Stellen (Opening screen und Awards screen) sind Hakenkreuze, die sich nicht "wegpatchen" lassen.
Die Verwendung dieser Hakenkreuze ist offensichtlich sinnvoll im historischen Kontext, aber könnte es nicht Probleme mit den deutschen Behörden geben, wenn ein Geschäft versuchen würde, diese CDs zu importieren?
Dies ist keine Kritik, ich frage mich nur, warum es kein Geschäft gibt, das diese Spiele nach Deutschland importiert - könnte dies vieleicht einer der Gründe sein? Gruß
Roland



Fredde -> (12/15/2001 6:36:00 PM)

Roland, I am not one very familiar with the German legal system as such. This is how I look at the problem though: In Sweden, use of Swastikas are strictly forbidden for political purposes since they stand for a non-democratic discriminative look at people (as a side note, in my city, the old musei trams still in use for tourist traffic use the swastika symbol as a symbol for electricity which was very common earlier. There was a big debate over this, which ended with the argument that those trams existed before the nazis.. ). I do believe that the German laws are aiming at the same purpose, even though the issue must be much more "electric" and sensitive there with your more direct ties to the history behind it. I would very much doubt that historic documents are edited to remove this symbol even in Germany. This is how i see this game. It is a recreation of history. The actual airplanes in question, at that time, carried the symbol. To erase something like this, or not allow history to be visualized is to pull a blanket over the past, which, as an amateur historian with some knowledge, I see as terrible and very dangerous.



RolandRahn_MatrixForum -> (12/15/2001 7:01:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fredde:

I would very much doubt that historic documents are edited to remove this symbol even in Germany. This is how i see this game. It is a recreation of history. The actual airplanes in question, at that time, carried the symbol. To erase something like this, or not allow history to be visualized is to pull a blanket over the past, which, as an amateur historian with some knowledge, I see as terrible and very dangerous.
Hello Fredde, thanks for your answer. I am not really concerned with the symbol on the tail of the ME 262 (and I am not concerned with the use of swasiskas in SPWAW at all), it's just that I fear that the swasiskas on the map (also they can be avoided using the "Iron Cross"-folder) and the additional swasiskas in MCNA might prevent these games from being imported into Germany (by a professional dealer). I do fully agree with you - the swasiska has no place as a political symbol, and that the use of the swasiska in SPWAW is - in the context of SPWAW - absolutely tolerable. My concern is that the german authorities might not think so - they even tried to prohibit "Mouse" (by Art Spiegelman)! Kind regards,
Roland



A.H -> (12/16/2001 12:51:00 AM)

If ancient symbol of good luck offends someone, I'm gonna get a swastica tattooed in my arsch and walk my pants on my knees. Come on people, it's just a symbol of good luck and to someone maybe it represents the aryan roots of the blond people. From now on, I'm gonna feel offended by the davids star! This is my counter-strike against stupid modern people!



Tombstone -> (12/16/2001 5:27:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by A.H:
If ancient symbol of good luck offends someone, I'm gonna get a swastica tattooed in my arsch and walk my pants on my knees. Come on people, it's just a symbol of good luck and to someone maybe it represents the aryan roots of the blond people. From now on, I'm gonna feel offended by the davids star! This is my counter-strike against stupid modern people!
This guy is hilarious. Inflammatory impotance is always fun to witness. I particularly like the 'stupid modern people' part... good stuff. Anyways, the discussion is about legal issues. Article 86a of the German penal code states: There is a charge of up to three years in prison or a financial fee for:
publishing symbols of an organization hostile to the constitution, or using these symbols publicly in meetings or publications.
importing, exporting using, publishing, distributing or producing items with these symbols domestically or internationally.
symbols are flags, buttons, uniforms, slogans and forms of greetings. Included are variations that are extremely similar to the original ones.
Excepted are the use of these symbols for public education, prevention of hostile actions against the constitution, the use in art, science, schooling, news reports, historical reports and the like. Here it is in german:
86a Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen (1) Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer 1. im Inland Kennzeichen einer der in § 86 Abs. 1 Nr. 1, 2 und 4 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen verbreitet oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in von ihm verbreiteten Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) verwendet oder 2. Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt. (2) Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum verwechseln ähnlich sind. (3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend. I don't know if this really answers the question.. Take a look at Sudden Strike for an example of a game about WW2 with a portrayal of the Wehrmacht. Tomo



Fredde -> (12/16/2001 7:37:00 AM)

Interesting reading.
One could always read things into the exceptions: - Historical report. This is more or less what SPWAW really is. The flags (which can be removed) might not belong there though.
- Public education. Hey, this game is a great school for WWII history And it is free.
- Prevention of hostile actions against the constitution. Definitely. Those who know history will not make the same mistakes over and over again.
- Science. Knowing how many hours both game creators and scenario designers put into researching and modeling, this is a piece of science just about worthy the Nobel prize.
- Art. If a colored blob on a paper is high-class art, the lovely work of the graphics artists here is art as well. Playing SPWAW is sometimes like performing art..



RolandRahn_MatrixForum -> (12/16/2001 9:11:00 AM)

Thanks to everyone who has so far answered. Tombstone's citations are very interesting. For the swasiska on the tail of the Me 262, there should be no problem - it's historical. The swasiskas on the map are another thing. And the additional swasiskas in MCNA - especially that in credits.lbm - are very problematic. Just my opinion. I think that the current use of swasiskas might make it very difficult (if not impossible) to find someone who would import the MCs. Kind regards,
Roland



scimitar -> (12/16/2001 7:23:00 PM)

As a model maker, I'm confronted with that problem: when making a WWII German model kit (like Me-262 by example), do I have to put a Swastika decal on the tail of the aircraft (historically meaning), or do I have to forget it for philosophical or politoical reasons? Personnaly, I think that a model kit is not a toy, but a representation of historical aircraft. So, on my model kit, I will put a Swastika. So doing, I'm surely not a Nazi! (see my comments on other topics, concerning genealogy by example: I'm surely not extremist or racist)
I think that people will have to make that distinction.



RolandRahn_MatrixForum -> (12/17/2001 2:04:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by scimitar:
As a model maker, I'm confronted with that problem: when making a WWII German model kit (like Me-262 by example), do I have to put a Swastika decal on the tail of the aircraft (historically meaning), or do I have to forget it for philosophical or politoical reasons? Personnaly, I think that a model kit is not a toy, but a representation of historical aircraft. So, on my model kit, I will put a Swastika. So doing, I'm surely not a Nazi! (see my comments on other topics, concerning genealogy by example: I'm surely not extremist or racist)
I think that people will have to make that distinction.

I agree with you. And *I* have no problems with the use of the swastika *in this context*.
I think that the "Iron Cross"-folder is necessary, but sufficient to make every gamer happy. My problem is the following:
If someone would try to official import Mega Campaigns into Germany as a commercial business, wouldn't that shop run into serious problems with the German authorities? I started this thread not because I have problems with the use of swastikas in SPWAW but because the German authorities might make problems if a shop would try to import Mega Campaigns (into Germany). A possible solution would be no swastikas in the game (after installing it from the CD) and a small file for download on the Matrixserver for those that don't want to have the "iron cross"-Symbols. However, since there are not enough people in Germany that would buy Mega Campaigns I don't think that the effort to realise this would pay off (for Matrix). Kind regards,
Roland



Mike Rothery -> (12/17/2001 7:49:00 AM)

I find this whole issue intrigueing. I occassionaly used to get a plastic model kit twenty years ago and would open it to find the swatika cut from the decal sheet due to these laws in Europe. The swastika was used by the Nazis but they did not invent it. I have seen it used in Hindu decoration as well. Banning a symbol as a way of purging an ideology is naive. The Hammer and Syckle carries as much bad kharma to me as a swastika does. I had a long conversation with a Polish immigrant to Australia many years ago, who was shocked that I had a copy of Mein Kampf on my bookshelf (alongside the Communist Manifesto and the Selected Military Writings of Mao Tse Tung), and that it was available in bookshops with no restriction. I explained to him that propaganda of extremists poses no threat unless people want to be deceived. Most Germans never read Mein Kampf, and if they did they probably didn't understand it. Most who waved a swastika flag didn't really understand the ideology it represented, they just wanted to belong, to be seen to be loyal, and wishing for things to be somehow better. Von Papen and his ilk gave Hitler the Chancellorship because they saw him as being the lesser of two evils when compared to the bolsheviks. The more history is studied and understood, the less likely it is that history can be mis-used to promote bigotry and hatred. Most countries (mine included) have some aspect of their history that is almost a taboo, and yet these are often the same events that nationalists scream about as justification for their extreme views. As for MCNA I do not think the swastikas are used gratuitously, and they are clearly in an historical context. I saw a documentary on Johannes Steinhof on the History Channel, and was disappointed that as head of the new Luftwaffe in the 1960's he would not wear his medals and awards from WW2 on his BundesWehr uniform. Meanwhile his NATO counterparts were all wearing their WW2 medal ribbons.



john g -> (12/17/2001 9:53:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rothery:
. The Hammer and Syckle carries as much bad kharma to me as a swastika does.
Here in the Southern USA the Confederate flag is held in the same status. On college campuses it is now a hate crime to display the Stars and Bars. If anything a person would get in less trouble here displaying a swastika than they would a Confederate flag. Even though both are symbols used by white supremacist groups. I respect the intent of the German Government in restricting the swastika, though their enforcement tactics may be heavy handed at times.
thanks, John.



RolandRahn_MatrixForum -> (12/17/2001 2:59:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rothery:
I find this whole issue intrigueing. I occassionaly used to get a plastic model kit twenty years ago and would open it to find the swatika cut from the decal sheet due to these laws in Europe.
Yes, I know. And I can only agree with you.
quote:


As for MCNA I do not think the swastikas are used gratuitously, and they are clearly in an historical context.
YES!
And *I* didn't want to question the use of the swastika in SPWAW/MCNA.
Unfortunately, the more I learn about our laws here in Germany I become very sure that the *authorities* here will very likely have another opinion about this issue. But that's OK, since they grab 50% of the money my employer spends for me, they had to return something - more laws that 'protect' me from such horrible things like SPWAW/MCNA. Kind regards,
Roland



NeoWhiteWolf -> (12/18/2001 1:38:00 AM)

And in a perfect world well all get over symbols...., Why is it when a country does something wrong they refuse to live with it by trying to erase it from their history when 2/3 of the world will remember it happened...Like japan refuses to admit they raped and killed millions of chinesse citizens as well as ritually tortured and killed allied POWs...It self dillusion they feel if they act stupid and ingnorant for a long time ppl will forget it ever happened....
...and in the perfect world...



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