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Nikademus -> (12/22/2001 6:19:00 AM)
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I just did a little experiment where i replaced the OOB-81 (Soviet) from 6.1 into the 7.0 game
The results of replaying a matchup of equal T-34's and Pz-III's was a bit more stomach-able shall we say?
Even without APCR, the Pz's could get a kill shot on the flanks, but not nearly so easily now and generally needed to be within 200 yards preferably though i got a few minor penetrations out to 450 yards.
On the issue of numbers and kill %'s, lets remind ourselves again that the tank kills primarily come from other sources, not other tanks. the RMZ quotes less than 10% of all T-34 casualties to enemy Panzers, but to AT guns and infantry. I've read that the best way KV and even T-34 tanks were dealt with on the Eastern Front was via the German infantry and the jury rigs they came up with to deal with the beasts (like slapping an AT mine under the recess for a KV turret.
Zologa in his difinitive work, commented that the Germans were largely able to deal with T34's because the Soviets tended to attack rigidly, and more importantly in the T34's case, in isolated penny packets allowing them to be outflanked and outmassed by the German panzers.
As a collaboration of this data, the RMZ points out that even in 42, the T-34 made up at the most only 1/3 of the available Russian tank force, the rest were lend-lease, some heavy KV and a good doseage of light tanks (+ a few suvivors from the 1930's crowd)
Russian tank losses were so severe that the brigade became the largest organizational tank unit in the Red Army with their STAVKA reserve measured in "tank brigades" Rudimentory 'tank armies' were attempted but such concentrations were rare outside of the one failed spring offensive in 42.
in WAW though, most of the above is bunk in terms of practical application, unless players are seeking aboslute realistic battle scenes. I did a little of this myself in my currrent Sov campaign, usually i go all T-34's and unless my crews are fresh from tank school i can do better than historical, knowing that i've got an inordinate concentration of modern tanks in my core. This time i did the 1/3 to 1/2 option, filling out the rest of my core with light tanks. A much tougher going but the battlefield superiority of the T-34 helps me hold my own. (well that and a brain dead AI)
As a German campaigner i used to dread the prospect of going to Russia, knowing that my precious panzer crews would be in for a rough time facing T-34's and KV tanks.....hoping and praying (and more importantly, using tactics on the fly!) to survive long enough for the first long barreled 75 AT guns and Pz-IV equiped units to become available. Long barreled Pz-III's help, but not enough to stave off that longing for 75's.
Now? might as well go all T-34 as Soviet because the vunder-tank is appearing more and more as a medicore entry.
Still playing with 7.0 but thats my observation as of today. I'm starting to wonder if maybe such 'sweeping' changes might better wait for a game engine that can better handle it like CL is supposed to be. With WAW and it's oft mentioned 6 slab sided armor limitation the tweaks, backed up as they may be by researched test data, might be producing results that might be considered, too extreme?
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Nitpicking is to be expected from grognard wargamers who want to feel that they are playing the most accurate version possible, as long as it's respectful, i dont see a problem with it. Yes there is the editor, but change to much, too radically on your own and will you feel better? Or will you worry that maybe you are the one who's off?
For what it's worth, my suspicions on the mark III gun might be off instead of WAW. Just downloaded the latest SP:WAW ver 5 and set up the same exact scenerio with the Grant tanks that i mentioned above. Guess what? same results, and as Paul has pointed out, tanks in the Cameo version of SP get a hell ova lot more APCR than in WAW. Checked their encyc too....ratings are of course, more generalized using the old SP system but the German gun ratings are very similar for the 50L42 and L60. Ratings differ greatly with the Russian guns and armor ratings.
A standard feature of SPWWII though that got me to thinking, and how could it as the scenerio i described was ALOT harder to set up because of it (did'nt use the editor, but the battle builder), was that maybe the problem is being created partially by the small default maps in WAW...they do tend to be close up and personal. In the Cameo version the maps are three times as large making onrushing panzer III's against Grants a more harrowing experience by far.
just a thought anyway. Intersting diversion, hav'nt revisited the Cameo version since before WAW first came out.
If one accepts that the 50L42 is accurately depicted then the focus should shift towards the downgrading of the Russian tanks. Hardly a minor 'nitpick' since it greatly affects gameplay.
