Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (Full Version)

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Mr.Frag -> Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 2:51:42 PM)

Key point #1:

Plan your shipping before you do *anything* else.

Load your troops into shipping. The ships will load instantly.

Should you have not planned right on the # of ships, it will say "loading troops". If you had enough ships it will say "loading supplies".

You must Cancel Loading or you just might find your ships still sitting in port on turn 2 loading. Note this!

If you build a TF to do a supply run, it will not load supplies until the end of the turn! Note this! Engrave it into your hand! It will be the cause of many screwed up turn #1's.

Now, here's the trap. Aircraft upgrade, factory changes etc all eat up supply. You ships are sitting there waiting to load that very same supply!

Should you burn through the supply doing *other* things, you will have your ships still sitting at the port when turn #2 starts, having not moved yet because they have run into the rule that prevents the base giving up all it's supply!

You will have completely blown your first turn!

Key point #2:

Do NOT include ships with very small fuel capacity in your TF's built on turn #1. They will cancel the special turn #1 move rate because they force a refueling check. Do NOT use Fast Transport TF's on turn #1, they do not get the bonus movement speed. Remember that this special move only eats 3 hexes worth of fuel to get there but there is NO special move to get you BACK from there. Again, think carefully about the low fuel ships. Do they have enough fuel to get to somewhere to refuel based on where you are sending them?


Key point #3:

Some bases in China start with not enough troops to suppress uprising. You must correct this on turn #1 or you will find yourself with bases that are destroyed for nothing. Pay attention to those ugly red numbers before it is too late!


Key point #4:

Get your subs moving! Subs benefit from this first turn speed move. Everyone knows where they are. Move em!

Key point #5:

Ground Units that do not start at a base will have their planned location set to the Capital. You need to correct this to the nearest base right off to not loose time. Units in bases are set to the base. Look around at your troops. You will see that some already have planned destinations set for somewhere (hint hint - through them on ships and send them there!).



Deathifier -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (6/26/2004 3:47:51 PM)

I take it this is mostly for Jap turn 1?

Allied Turn 1 is more like "run around room screaming while everything gets blown to bits" right?

I'm still trying to decide which one to play first once the game pops up in the store :)

- Deathifier



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (6/26/2004 3:56:33 PM)

Yes, mostly Japanese, but the ship loading information will catch Allies too as they wonder *why* their ships never seem to finish loading and leave port. [;)]



ltfightr -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 3:59:19 PM)

Thanks Mr Frag the kind of reminders/hints that I find useful it seems as if these points come from a painful lesson learned[8D]



52nd Lowland -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (6/26/2004 3:59:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deathifier

I take it this is mostly for Jap turn 1?

Allied Turn 1 is more like "run around room screaming while everything gets blown to bits" right?

I'm still trying to decide which one to play first once the game pops up in the store :)

- Deathifier


Im sure that the Jap attack last for more then 1 turn..more like several months or years depending on how you play.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 4:05:00 PM)

quote:

Thanks Mr Frag the kind of reminders/hints that I find useful it seems as if these points come from a painful lesson learned


Yes indeed, many painful lessons.

The fuel problem(s) with small ships: I only actually figured out that was the cause a few weeks ago. Been scratching my head over that one for months.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (6/26/2004 4:15:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deathifier

I take it this is mostly for Jap turn 1?

Allied Turn 1 is more like "run around room screaming while everything gets blown to bits" right?

I'm still trying to decide which one to play first once the game pops up in the store :)

- Deathifier

Caution to the wind!
I'd start the big campaign as Allies vs IJ AI regardless of a daunting ignorance outside of UV. Because of your ignorance of the new additions to the game mechanics/OOB positions/ etc at the start, the mistakes you will inevitably make "simulate" the utter confusion sufferred by the Allies at the time and give the AI a better chance of providing an interesting game. You can't lose as Allies so why not struggle along as they did historically? Over time, you learn the game.

Allied forces are relatively small at the start and not much happens in China for some reason, perhaps leave it to the 'puter. Once you understand the game, the AI loses it's bite because the game is so immense it can't conceivably react to ya. By the time you are more comfortable with the game (May 42?), IJ should have conquered the SRA, major portions of Burma...basically be in a relatively historical position.



Xargun -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 5:24:59 PM)

A question concerning Turn 1 (non-historic) for the japanese.. A lot of stuff is already preloaded onto ships and TF already have orders - is there any way to get a CLEAN start for turn 1 ?

Xargun



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 5:29:27 PM)

quote:

A question concerning Turn 1 (non-historic) for the japanese.. A lot of stuff is already preloaded onto ships and TF already have orders - is there any way to get a CLEAN start for turn 1 ?


[X(][:(][X(][:(]

You don't know how long I begged for a starting scenario with *nothing* set for that reason. Just ran out of time.



ltfightr -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 5:31:39 PM)

Mr frag Maybe that can be your 1st editor task.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 5:36:51 PM)

quote:

Mr frag Maybe that can be your 1st editor task.


It is easy enough to do, but the scenario would not say "Official Scenario" [;)]



ltfightr -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 5:37:45 PM)

But then they could include it in the 1st patch and make it official.



Jonny_B -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 7:41:06 PM)

[:)][8D][:)][8D]

Hey itfightr:

They can not hear you, did you say CAN WE ORDER YET or can we order yet??????????????



ADavidB -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 7:51:42 PM)

quote:

Key point #1:

Plan your shipping before you do *anything* else.

Load your troops into shipping. The ships will load instantly.

Should you have not planned right on the # of ships, it will say "loading troops". If you had enough ships it will say "loading supplies".

You must Cancel Loading or you just might find your ships still sitting in port on turn 2 loading. Note this!

If you build a TF to do a supply run, it will not load supplies until the end of the turn! Note this! Engrave it into your hand! It will be the cause of many screwed up turn #1's.

Now, here's the trap. Aircraft upgrade, factory changes etc all eat up supply. You ships are sitting there waiting to load that very same supply!

Should you burn through the supply doing *other* things, you will have your ships still sitting at the port when turn #2 starts, having not moved yet because they have run into the rule that prevents the base giving up all it's supply!

You will have completely blown your first turn!


Let's see if I understand this right...

"You must Cancel Loading or you just might find your ships still sitting in port on turn 2 loading. Note this! "

Are you referring to the condition of "loading supplies" that occurs once the troops have loaded?

Does the instantaneous loading of troops only occur in turn 1?

What if you are loading armor, engineers with dozers, etc? The sorts of things that caused slower loading in UV.

"Should you burn through the supply doing *other* things, you will have your ships still sitting at the port when turn #2 starts, having not moved yet because they have run into the rule that prevents the base giving up all it's supply! "

This implies that you can shut off other supply-burning activities in order to fill your supply ships. True?

What if you want to fill your troop ships with supplies as well as troops. You could do that in UV, can you do it here?

Also, in UV the size of the port affected loading/unloading speed for everything. Is that still true?

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 8:13:58 PM)

Turn #1 ONLY has a unlimited load speed.



Tha_Field_Marshall -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 8:41:56 PM)

So let me get this strait, on turn one you can load all troops onto ships in one turn, but supplies will not be loaded?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/26/2004 8:54:33 PM)

Nope, supplies too. Just make sure you don't bump into the 10% base rule that hordes supplies.



ADavidB -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 12:56:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Turn #1 ONLY has a unlimited load speed.


Thanks-

Dave Baranyi

(Now if the good folks-in-charge will hurry up and let the rest of us customers-to-be order the game...)



marc420 -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 10:21:47 AM)

Uh-oh, I smell a GG UI here. I have to hit "cancel loading" in order to make the troops load?

And even though an amount of supply has been taken to the docks and orders given to load it onto ships, a factory across town can still somehow use up the supplies???

Arggh! I'd forgotten the pain of playing a game with one of GG's UIs. [X(]



Deathifier -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 5:04:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marc420

Uh-oh, I smell a GG UI here. I have to hit "cancel loading" in order to make the troops load?

And even though an amount of supply has been taken to the docks and orders given to load it onto ships, a factory across town can still somehow use up the supplies???

Arggh! I'd forgotten the pain of playing a game with one of GG's UIs. [X(]


It appears to just be a rule that prevents you stealing all the supply a base needs by accident.

For example if you rock up with an oversized TF to a large forward base, load a couple of units on you want to take back for R&R but accidently forget to use "Load Troops Only" then when the TF loads up it doesn't take away all the food the remaining troops need to survive in the process :)

It would be nice if a signal was given that this rule is delaying loading though.


Ron Saueracker: Loading up and diving into the main campaign as the first thing is very tempting indeed ;)

- Deathifier



Drex -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 5:13:31 PM)

So small ships(1000 tns) should be kept in the inland sea and environs?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 5:22:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marc420

Uh-oh, I smell a GG UI here. I have to hit "cancel loading" in order to make the troops load?

And even though an amount of supply has been taken to the docks and orders given to load it onto ships, a factory across town can still somehow use up the supplies???

Arggh! I'd forgotten the pain of playing a game with one of GG's UIs. [X(]



No. This only happens because YOU go on a click fest and use up the supply elsewhere *before* the ships are loaded upgrading aircraft and factories. Ships load whats there. If you take it away from them, it obviously is not available to be loaded. Ships will not take all supply from the base, it exerts it's own priority and says "no, I need xxx". On any normal turn, this would not matter, they would just stay until the supplies were available. The point is that the first turn move is special. You will be left sitting there waiting for supplies and loose the move speed advantage. Pretty simple to understand for most folks and has nothing to do with the UI. It is just one of those standard newbie pitfalls.



sven6345789 -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 5:23:29 PM)

let me get this straight.

You load troops on turn 1 and supplies. automatic immediate loading because of turn 1. Once you TF has loaded the troops, you send it to some place for turn 1. before you finish you turn, you have to cancel any further loading of supplies because otherwise, the TF might spend turn one with loading instead of moving.
correct?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 5:33:38 PM)

quote:

You load troops on turn 1 and supplies. automatic immediate loading because of turn 1. Once you TF has loaded the troops, you send it to some place for turn 1. before you finish you turn, you have to cancel any further loading of supplies because otherwise, the TF might spend turn one with loading instead of moving. correct?


Not quite. Only happens if you try and strip the place and cram stuff on every ship you own (common newbie start).

Give you an example.

Taan has a hundred odd ships and a lot of troops. You have more then enough ships to load *everything* at the base.

As you load the ships, supply gets loaded with the troops.

As you load *more* ships, the amount of supply available continues to go down.

Eventually, you will get into the range that ships are no longer loading to 100% because of the base rule that holds back supplies to keep the base running.

Because *these* ships are not fully loaded, they will still be set to loading supplies.


Since there is no more supplies to be loaded, they will *not* sprint off to target with the turn one speed. They will be waiting for the rest of the supplies to show up and load them.

Clicking "Cancel Loading Supplies" ensures that these ships don't stick around to finish loading. They will leave partly empty BUT will use the turn one move speed and arrive at the target on turn 1



Rendova -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 5:54:01 PM)

makes sense. Just one more thing to learn



captskillet -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 6:24:59 PM)

Frag....I assume it loads enough to cover the troops you got onboard??



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 6:53:39 PM)

quote:

Frag....I assume it loads enough to cover the troops you got onboard??


No, you will be relearning the entire concept for loading things from scratch. It has been completely gutted and redone to make sense.

example time:

You have an HQ unit which is 300 support. Support has a load cost of 20 per element.

That gives you 6000 Infantry type load factors.

Taking an AP that has 3000 capacity, one sees that Infantry load factors take 1 space per element.

Take 3x 3000 AP's (9000 capacity).

The 6000 infantry factors will spread out over those 3 ships (2000 per). The remaining space (1000) will get loaded with supplies *but* AP's are not suited to carry supplies (load factor of 3) so you have 1000 space devided by 3 or 333 supplies.

You will end up with:

100 troops per ship and 333 supplies.

Adding a 4th ship to the mix:

4x 3000 AP's (12000 capacity)

1500 troops factors x1
500 supply factors x 3

75 troops per ship, and 500 supplies.

Change to AK's ... oh oh ... brain starting to hurt!!!

AK load Infantry at a factor of 6 but supplies at a factor of 1

still have 6000 infantry load factors ... so 6000 x 6 (ouch!) or 36000 AK space.

So we scratch our head and come up with 6 7000 AK ships.

so, 42000 space of which 36000 goes to troops and 6000 to supply.

Ship ends up looking like: 50 Troops, 1000 supply.

Brain still not gushing blood yet? You really want me to go on?



Rendova -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 7:02:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Frag....I assume it loads enough to cover the troops you got onboard??


No, you will be relearning the entire concept for loading things from scratch. It has been completely gutted and redone to make sense.

example time:

You have an HQ unit which is 300 support. Support has a load cost of 20 per element.

That gives you 6000 Infantry type load factors.

Taking an AP that has 3000 capacity, one sees that Infantry load factors take 1 space per element.

Take 3x 3000 AP's (9000 capacity).

The 6000 infantry factors will spread out over those 3 ships (2000 per). The remaining space (1000) will get loaded with supplies *but* AP's are not suited to carry supplies (load factor of 3) so you have 1000 space devided by 3 or 333 supplies.

You will end up with:

100 troops per ship and 333 supplies.

Adding a 4th ship to the mix:

4x 3000 AP's (12000 capacity)

1500 troops factors x1
500 supply factors x 3

75 troops per ship, and 500 supplies.

Change to AK's ... oh oh ... brain starting to hurt!!!

AK load Infantry at a factor of 6 but supplies at a factor of 1

still have 6000 infantry load factors ... so 6000 x 6 (ouch!) or 36000 AK space.

So we scratch our head and come up with 6 7000 AK ships.

so, 42000 space of which 36000 goes to troops and 6000 to supply.

Ship ends up looking like: 50 Troops, 1000 supply.

Brain still not gushing blood yet? You really want me to go on?


As complex as that sounded it actually makes alot of sense..... and while it is going to take a while to learn (hmmmmm maybe starting on a smaller map makes sense after all [8|][8|]) it is going to be an awsome game once I get it down....

One quick question how good is the AI at managing proper use of his shipping. Does it properly use AP vs AKs? Does it try to find a route so that shipping is loaded in both directions? etc.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 7:10:41 PM)

quote:

One quick question how good is the AI at managing proper use of his shipping. Does it properly use AP vs AKs? Does it try to find a route so that shipping is loaded in both directions? etc.


Yes, the automatic convoy system attempts to route ships in a way that makes sense ... ie: base x needs supplies but base y has resources so swing by base y after dropping off the supplies and bring the resources back home.

The AI being a computer tends to be pretty good at loading things because is *is* a calculator. [;)]



kev_uk -> RE: Newbie tips: turn #1 (Japanese Player + some Allied info) (6/27/2004 7:42:22 PM)

Can the mods sticky this thread?
Ta
Kevin



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