American problems (Full Version)

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Gump -> American problems (12/27/2001 10:05:00 AM)

I was wondering how most of you handle this typical problem: You are the American commander assaulting a German position with the following ...
a platoon of M4-76mm
a section of M10 TDs
a company of infantry on halftracks
2 batteries of 105mm arty The German position is a level 2 hill 2000 meters away with sparse cover. Assume there are similar hills to the right and left. The hill has the following: 1 Panther dug in
1 MK IV H dug in
2 PAK 75 ATG dug in
1 platoon of Infantry and MMG Unit. Can anyone tell me how to frontally assault that position without 50% casualties ?? [ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Gump ]



Warrior -> (12/27/2001 10:27:00 AM)

Spend two or three turns blasting the hill with arty and smoke at the end. Charge with the halftracks, when the first is destroyed dismount them all and continue to advance with the infantry. Follow with your armor firing at targets of opportunity. Throughout your advance target any Germans position you spot with arty. Get some armor on the flanks. Supress any German infantry that fires on one unit, then move another of your infantry units forward. With luck you'll only lose 30 - 35%. (BIG luck!)



Redleg -> (12/27/2001 10:29:00 AM)

The 105 batteries are the key. If you enough turns to move slowly behind the barrage and smoke from the artillery, it shouldn't be too difficult.



panda124c -> (12/27/2001 11:46:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Spend two or three turns blasting the hill with arty and smoke at the end. Charge with the halftracks, when the first is destroyed dismount them all and continue to advance with the infantry. Follow with your armor firing at targets of opportunity. Throughout your advance target any Germans position you spot with arty. Get some armor on the flanks. Supress any German infantry that fires on one unit, then move another of your infantry units forward. With luck you'll only lose 30 - 35%. (BIG luck!)
And flank the position with Co Commander's squad and the section of M-10's



Redleg -> (12/27/2001 1:40:00 PM)

It would be fun to make a scenario like that and have a contest to see how it played out. Actually, it would make a pretty decent scenario if not for the U.S. being in on it! (Just kidding)



Warrior -> (12/27/2001 9:14:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Redleg:
It would be fun to make a scenario like that and have a contest to see how it played out. Actually, it would make a pretty decent scenario if not for the U.S. being in on it! (Just kidding)
So... you want to do it, or shall I?



Gump -> (12/27/2001 10:10:00 PM)

I have played this scenario many times in an effort to understand what it might have been like for a tactical level commander on the western front. I have often wondered why American losses weren't twice what they were. Is my artillery superiority fairly represented ? I don't believe air power was very available at this level of engagement....was it ? The most effective method is a banzai charge with halftracks from a flank, followed by armor after bombardment & smoke.......(assuming I don't remember exactly where I deployed the German forces) It will usually result in at least 50% casualties.....If victorious at all. Another tactic that works is to dismount the infantry and advance ...wait...wait... then using the halftracks as sacrificial decoys in front of the armor, advance on a flank taking out targets as they reveal themselves with arty and armor.....
You don't want to be a halftrack driver in that army........ any other ideas ???



Nikademus -> (12/28/2001 12:35:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Gump:
I have played this scenario many times in an effort to understand what it might have been like for a tactical level commander on the western front. I have often wondered why American losses weren't twice what they were. Is my artillery superiority fairly represented ? I don't believe air power was very available at this level of engagement....was it ? The most effective method is a banzai charge with halftracks from a flank, followed by armor after bombardment & smoke.......(assuming I don't remember exactly where I deployed the German forces) It will usually result in at least 50% casualties.....If victorious at all. Another tactic that works is to dismount the infantry and advance ...wait...wait... then using the halftracks as sacrificial decoys in front of the armor, advance on a flank taking out targets as they reveal themselves with arty and armor.....
You don't want to be a halftrack driver in that army........ any other ideas ???
I dont recall the source but i believe someone here mentioned that a differing point between US and German doctorine was that the US did not engage with their halftracks in close support of the dismounted infantry like the Germans did when on the attack. Besides which, using the halftracks puposely as "shot traps" against AT guns and tanks is definately more of a 'gamer' tactic vs a real life tactic, even for the Germans given their more limited supply of these valuable units. As for American casualties, sometimes they were much higher than the German if the the German was the defender and they (for once) had an adequate supply of AFV's in the area. The US Army itself came up with the 'average' figure that against a Panther tank for example that it would take a minimum of 5 Shermans to successfully engage it with a good chance that four of those five tanks would be brewed up in the process. However the US did have the advantage of more generous supply, (i.e. ammo in this case), and more artillery and air support. This is not always simulable in SP because of the small scale tactical nature of the game. Most generated games tend to be more 'balanced' for playability. To simulate real life conditions, though not the hardfast rule, double or tripple the US contingent and then go take that hill, that was more the norm. This is no dig against the US forces, just a simple reality. The Germans were simply outmuscled for most of the time on the Western Front, with only the December offensive as the major exception (and even then the fuel constraints were critical along with the necessity to operate when the Allied air forces were mostly grounded)



Gump -> (12/28/2001 2:06:00 AM)

The 5 Shermans to 1 Panther ratio I believe was in a strict armor to armor battle.... I believe the American forces were more successful than that due to an ability to draw upon large reserves to combine armor, infantry and arty in the best way for a given situation. I used the examples of Halftrack banzai to illustrate that only with those kinds of unconventional tactics does it become easily done. Can someone give me a different mix of US forces that would be more effective ??.... obviously keeping about the same value of total US forces. If I were to double or triple the US force I believe that the casualties would still be horrible... Did the US routinely accept that kind of casualty level just to take 1 lightly defended hill ??



Nikademus -> (12/28/2001 2:24:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Gump:
The 5 Shermans to 1 Panther ratio I believe was in a strict armor to armor battle.... I believe the American forces were more successful than that due to an ability to draw upon large reserves to combine armor, infantry and arty in the best way for a given situation. I used the examples of Halftrack banzai to illustrate that only with those kinds of unconventional tactics does it become easily done. Can someone give me a different mix of US forces that would be more effective ??.... obviously keeping about the same value of total US forces. If I were to double or triple the US force I believe that the casualties would still be horrible... Did the US routinely accept that kind of casualty level just to take 1 lightly defended hill ??
battles rarely tend to operate under such 'strict' guidelines. Besides which, even if you have an infantry escort for example, what can that infantry do to assist those 5 Shermans at medium to long range once the Panther (or AT gun) opens fire? At that point it becomes a tank duel unless the infantry can close the ground rapidly enough, but then if the Panther has it's own infantry support then the problem magnifies. No-one suggested charging Banzai style though depending on the circumstances sometimes that is the only choice. Green battlefield commanders tend to think along neat planned and set piece lines figuring if you go from point A to point B you'll be successful. Does'nt always work that way. Most plans never survive first contact with the enemy. In game terms this will be largely determined by the turn length of the battle. Often a scenerio will not give you enough time for a careful conservative set-piece attack by the numbers, then you either have to get creative or accept that you will suffer greater casualties. The US however did have the best chance to create this set piece attack on the Western Front though due to strength disperity. Artillery and air support are the main keys here. Without greatly modifying your selection choices or the point levels......have you tried laying down a smoke screen? From what you've described the specific situation favors the German because there is sparse cover, thus allowing the dug in tank and AT-gun to maximize their strengths i.e. their ability to smash Allied armor from long range. There's part of your answer too....not all situations had terrain that complimented said German attributes. In this case though, you have a challenge. Try smoke, followed by a continual staggered artillery barrage to keep him supressed. Get as close as possible with your halftracks and then dismount and try to advance no more than 1 hex at a time if possible to gain the defensive bonus for your grunts. That'll minimize casualties from MG fire. If the smoke cover is successful bring in your tanks right behind the infantry to provide close support. Combined arms tactics.



Larry Holt -> (12/28/2001 2:35:00 AM)

Let me expand upon the analysis already given. In this scenario the defender could have the advantage of long range fires but you can maneuver to mass your whole force against one of his. Take away his advantage and exploit yours. The ATGs and infantry are very vulnerable to your arty and represent no problem, the tanks are a problem. If you advance in the sparse open area, you are dead meat. First you need to approximately locate the Germans. You have told us what there is to locate but in real life you might not know this. Advance three armored infantry squads in leap frog overwatch, moving one with two overwatching. When the Germans fire at you, this gives a good chance of locating them. Use arty to supress the ATGs and smoke to blind the tanks. Behind the armored infantry that you are using as recon, maneuver your total force to take on the tanks one at at time. Always keep some infantry unloaded to overwatch your bounding element to watch for enemy units that might fire on it. You can use what terrain that exists and smoke to create concealment then move until you are in a position to jump off an attack against one. This should be close enough to make it to the tank with some MP to spare (say no more than 1/2 of your MP away) but far enough away to pound the tank with arty to supress it. The fire the arty, supress the tank then move in for the kill.



Charles2222 -> (12/28/2001 2:41:00 AM)

(Assuming that is the entireity of the Gerry force, and I can see them all). 1. In any attempt to destroy them from afar, it will depend on if the M10s have 90mm guns (I don't recall). 2. Use artillery to destroy the ATGs. 3. Completely ignore the infantry unless the M10s aren't 90mm. 4. Concentrate ALL AP fire on the Panther. The idea being that either the 90mms knock it out or the suppression affects it so greatly it either retreats or cannot fire. 5. Use M10s (if 90mm again) as hide-and-shoot to where one has it hidden, steps forward, fores all but one round, and then goes back to the hiding spot. For all AP fire of the first turn, this should be used last, so that it is least affected by counter-fire. Depending on how things go (let's say after the first turn for both sides, nothing is destroyed), with the understanding that the Panther is now pretty suppressed, I would then use turn two's first AP fire as coming from the M10s in the hopes that the Panther will be destroyed there. 6. Failing the M10s have pentrating ability, I would heavily consider rushing the position, leaving the M10s to as much suppression fire on the Panther and/or PZIVs as possible, and still not be seeing high percentage counter-fire. Enroute I would have the 76mm try to take out the PZIVs with a little suppressive fire to the Panther. In this scenario, I would likely reverse who shoots first on the first turn, that being the 76mms, while having the M10s firing first on the second turn. In the totality of what I said, in using the M10s, I would also likely alternate their fire between them, so that any counter-fire keeps switching targets. One thing that does occur to me, given the HUGE superiority of infantry for the US here, is that to cmobine having the M10s if they have 90mm guns and rushing the position with infantry, I'm hard-pressed to imagine such a small force of Germans hold back a WHOLE COMPANY of infantry, but it does invite letting the US have their armor sit back and just keep the Panther in particular, and the PZIVs secondarily, as suppression targets if nothing else.



Frank W. -> (12/28/2001 2:49:00 AM)

that´s a matter of time, i think.... 2 batteries of 105´s are more than enough for this position,if you have the time for a long enough bombardement. that´s all. if time is very limited it will be a difficult task..... remember that tohse tanks even get supresion from nearby arty hits,which means no direct hit to the armor is required. use the "shift fire function" to lay the arty shelling behind when your units are advancing,of course using the flanking and smoke tactics mentioned from my fellow SPWAW specialists btw: which terrain is the hill? if rough the situation will be some more difficult´cause dug in units in rough or rock terrain are VERY difficult to take out...



Gump -> (12/28/2001 4:59:00 AM)

Has anyone ever read any real tactical descriptions of this type of action ? I believe Larry is correct in using the total force to isolate each German unit in turn and neutralize it. was this the US tactical doctrine for this type of situation ??? Is infantry the way to take out enemy armor ?

This question intrigues me because the US was able to succeed even with vastly inferior armor. I was nice enough to make the M4's 76 mm...imagine 75 mm......... The Soviets knew they needed heavy armor .. How did the US succeed without it ?



Tombstone -> (12/28/2001 8:06:00 AM)

US had a lot in its favor once it got on European soil. Planes, and artillery did a lot to make up for armor deficiencies (not to mention a serious numerical superiority in tanks). Also, Germany had to split its forces between east and west fronts. As far as the scenario is concerned, I think the trick is to locate the panther. Everything else is cake. Drop a big chunk of smoke 8 hexes in front of the hill with one of the btty's, and with the other pound the hill. Two turns of smoke should create enough of a blind corridor for you to move up the halftracks and dismount the infantry in the near edge of the smoke. Then advance through the smoke with the whole company as packed together as possible with the half-tracks advancing 2 or 3 hexes behind. Keep all the armor hanging out behind the smoke. Shift both bttys to he and keep hitting the near face of the hill. That should cause a decent amount of suppression and create a fair amount of smoke. If you make contact the co of infantry should have almost no difficulty with anything except the two tanks. If the MkIV pops out bring out your tanks and take it down. In all likelyhood you'll take few losses. If the Panther pops up then try and creep a Sherman out at an angle that can see the hex in front of the Panther without seeing the panther itself. Then just fire off a smoke round directly in front of the sucker. At which point advancing infantry should be able to manually eliminate everything on the hill... I'm guessing losses at like 10-15% if your lucky, and 30% to 40% at worst. Something important to remember is that this is a game, a LOT more people die in SPWAW than every could in reality. If the Germans were getting pounded like that and saw the advance, they'd probably take off. Tomo



Matt -> (12/28/2001 8:22:00 AM)

Gump, this is a great inquiry and I will through in my two cents and add a bit to what is out there. First of all, even 20% casualties in this situation is tough to stomach, let alone 50%. I would submit that there are a couple of keys here: combined arms and patience. As I envision it, no more than a possible loss of two halftracks, one tank like vehicle, and few infantrymen (without using any thing in a sacrificial manner...the idea makes my skin crawl). In this case, (and I don't remember offhand if a mech company has scouts) one platoon (scouts or not) gets to be recon. If possible, at least one section of tanks or M10 follows to help set a base of fire once enemy are located. The tough part is the cat and mouse game of finding the long range killers (PAKs and Panthers). Once found, put smoke right in their LOS, preferably with the tanks or M10s, but otherwise with arty. Also, put some HE on those PAKs for some suppression. Start to create with smoke, suppression and the earlier mentioned base of fire, an assailable flank and maneuver toward it with the rest of your force. Depending on whether the German infantry is co-located with their heavy guns, you will be able to suppress them with your arty (ideally), or find them with some elements you designate for that purpose. Once you find the infantry and the heavies are suppressed or destroyed, you should be able to systematically dismantle the German position with a bit of tank/infantry cooperation. (Ie. tanks suppress with a bit of standoff, and infantry close and destroy with the tanks overwatching.) Unless you face a crafty human opponent, you can neutralize that Panther and the PAKs with one or two smoke rounds each. Then its just a matter of time. Once again, the keys are effective recon, then smoke to neutralize the firepower advantage of the long German 75s, then combined arms cooperation. Banzai charges, sacrifices and the like only really work against isolated, already suppressed opponents, or as a gamism. And since this game is to simulate life as closely as possible, no one really wants to give into gamisms. Anybody else? Matt "We must do as we must, not as we would like" [ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Matt ]



BjörnR -> (12/30/2001 7:07:00 PM)

Gump
I was so interested in your question that I designed a scenario with you specifications. I made the hill in the middle of a small map and made it impossible to flank (swamp and mash).
I found that it was possible to overrun the German position without the armour (5 M4 and 2 M 10).
I started 2000 m from the hill, advanced rapidly with the scouts and followed by the loaded half-tracks. When the Germans opened fire (around 800m) I dismounted, and advance 1 hex at a time, leaving the half-tracks behind.
Now was the time to lay a smokescreen just in front of the German position (preplanned so it came instantly). When I had a good smokescreen the half-tracks ran up to the infantry loaded and advanced to the foot of the hill and unloaded.
The artillery was now bombing the hill as close in front of my troops that I dared (3 to 4 hexes). The infantry advanced trough the smoke, one hex at a turn, followed by the half-tracks. As soon as an enemy position was identified, the mortars fired at that (from close distance at the foot of the hill, and immediately).
The Germans didn’t have a chance. The last resistance was from the two tanks, but they were finally attacked from all directions wit bazookas and succumbed.
US losses: 21 men, 1 APC. German losses: 60 men, 2 tanks and 2 AT guns.
If I let the AI attack, the Panther was formidable. It started to pick the Shermans immediately, and none came closer than 1000 m. The AI used artillery witch disturbed the Germans but the whole attack was broken several hundred m in front of the German position. (the AI didn’t use smoke).



Wild Bill -> (12/30/2001 7:10:00 PM)

I really enjoyed these posts and the various approaches you guys are taking to getting the job done. Very impressive! Wild Bill



AmmoSgt -> (12/30/2001 10:58:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Gump:
The 5 Shermans to 1 Panther ratio I believe was in a strict armor to armor battle.... I believe the American forces were more successful than that due to an ability to draw upon large reserves to combine armor, infantry and arty in the best way for a given situation. I used the examples of Halftrack banzai to illustrate that only with those kinds of unconventional tactics does it become easily done. Can someone give me a different mix of US forces that would be more effective ??.... obviously keeping about the same value of total US forces. If I were to double or triple the US force I believe that the casualties would still be horrible... Did the US routinely accept that kind of casualty level just to take 1 lightly defended hill ??
The US lost a Total of 80,000 KIA and about 250,000 wounded in the ETO from Normandy to VE day .. and the Germans took about 200,000 KIA and about 500,000 wounded and a million captured/surendered on the western front roughly



BjörnR -> (12/31/2001 1:51:00 AM)

I tried to make it a little more balanced. The mech comp and one 105mm how battery is enough to take the hill in a frontal assault, even if the hill has excellent defensive terrain and a FJ platoon with 50mm mortar support is the defender (together with the PzIVH and Panther and 2 75mm AT). That makes the attacking force points about 3 times the defender. Same tactics as described above.



Major Destruction -> (12/31/2001 3:44:00 AM)

This is a very interesting thread. I enjoyed reading the various tactics used. Gump asked about some real-life tactics. Here's one which maybe somebody can elucidate on. Ref: August 1944 by Robert A Miller isbn: 0-89141-594-7 page 240.
"A measure of Clarke's [Col. Bruce Clarke] aggressiveness had been demonstrated several days before [before August 30] when CCA [Combat Command A] approached the town of Troyes on the Seine. To his surprise, he found the town strongly defended. At first glance, a frontal assault looked suicidal. However, recalling his training in desert-style warfare, Clarke spread his tanks across a wide front facing the German defenses and made a mad dash for the town. Hurdling the tank ditches and brushing aside other anti-tank defenses, Clarke's tanks overwhelmed the German defenses by the speed of their attack and took the city in a matter of hours." This, by the way, was the same Clarke who did not believe in any Sherman tank inferiority to the Panther.
Of course, this narrative paints a picture in one broad brush stroke. There is no detail of any supporting artillery fire or of any infantry involvement, although we might assume that there was. And the phrase 'heavily defended' offers no idea of the nature of the defense. This might provide another challenge for the scenario designers out there if somebody can dig up the details of this action. [ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: Major Destruction ]



achappelle -> (12/31/2001 3:53:00 PM)

I'm a big fan of the "creeping barrage" approach. The Brits seemed to have it down to a science. Just pound the snot out of the hill with arty, and get your infantry in there on it's coattails. I'd say three- to four turns of HE should do the trick. The infantry should probably have some Bazookas, M1s or M9s depending on the year, so up close to the hopefully suppressed Panther and PZiV, should be no problem. Just have to accept some losses to your infantry from the gerries, and your arty. Your tanks can follow behind a hex or two, and jump in after the inf has taken their shots, to mop up. The infantry wear the scars and the armour wear the stars.



skukko -> (12/31/2001 4:26:00 PM)

ok, interesting thread indeed But as a german commander I would get hell out of that hill when shells start to fall. Barrage is visitcard for Bigger enemy approach, -Btn sized I would say. So why waste two valuable tanks and platoon for fight that can't be won. I would retreta hill and start sniping with Panther, also I would use infantry to spot tartgets and Panzer against infantry that arrives thru the smoke to empty hill. Do it pbem -style msoh



brianleeprice -> (12/31/2001 11:00:00 PM)

There is one battlefield strength the US Army had but, to my understanding, rarely employed - almost modern maneuver capability. Take a good look at an Armored Cavalry company - select M8 Wolfhound heavy armored cars and Hellcat tank destroyers; add a few M20+ scout baz teams for recon, a pair of M4 81mm SP mortars, a pair of M15A1 or M16 SPAAAs*, and a platoon of mechanized infantry. At first glance this seems too lightweight a force to deal with heavy german armor or fortified positions, but realize that the *slowest* vehicles in the force have movement 38... Rather than use the M4 SPMs as artillery pieces, use them as mainly as direct fire smoke units. Never allow your units to fire too many shots per turn as this will run them out of movement points, given the low armor values - the only defense you have really have is mobility. Use smoke to isolate enemy units, artillery to surpress, high speed M8's at long range to harrass and draw fire, and then kill with either the SP AAA's vs infantry or the Hellcats vs armor. Historically I believe such units existed however whether or not they employed the suggested tactics or were used merely for fast response/rear area security forces I'm not sure. I do know that using such a force in the game is one heck of a lot of fun as well as being very challenging. *Note: one thing I've been wanting to try with this mix is the quad .50 cal AAA jeep - with the higher movement allowance it raises your force minimum speed to 40 and the minimum speed of your direct firing attack units to 50+. The main drawback of using the M15A1 or M16 SP-AAA is that they easily get stuck without movement points after firing a shot or two. Brian



Frank W. -> (1/1/2002 4:16:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by skukko:
ok, interesting thread indeed But as a german commander I would get hell out of that hill when shells start to fall. Barrage is visitcard for Bigger enemy approach, -Btn sized I would say. So why waste two valuable tanks and platoon for fight that can't be won. I would retreta hill and start sniping with Panther, also I would use infantry to spot tartgets and Panzer against infantry that arrives thru the smoke to empty hill. Do it pbem -style msoh
d you really think hitler would have alowed your retreat???????????? at least you were executed!! dawn,this madman has made it impossible
to his (real good) commanders to act like
they think and view the situation. the war would have had another outcome without
this man. but, i have read a book lately that says
roosevelt even refuses to talk to german restistance men....if the allied had given more
support to the anti hitler coalation in germany
perhaps some blodshed lesser had occured.
off topic a little i admit!!!! HNY



Gump -> (1/1/2002 6:19:00 AM)

Guess I forgot to say an American Ranger company... which has less men than a full mech company or rifle company. Also with the AI at 200. I agree with a full company they are quite capable of taking the hill. Also I agree that a smart (non AI) German commander could make things even more difficult... I would also manuver the German tanks away from smoke and arty..... sniping at the approaching vehicles....shoot & scoot German style.... I think the written description of Clark's action in taking that town might have been a little short on content..... If he did just charge into a city with no recon or intel he probably should have been court marshalled. So it appears the best tactic is to bombard and smoke for a few turn.... assault with dismounted infantry in a leapfrog method with armor following, supplying extra smoke and direct fire when able. Bjorn... thanks for the scenarios ... I will try them out tonight... While not as glamorous as German or Soviet equipment, I think the US makes an interesting scenario.... It gives you a much more interesting set of command choices...... Kind of lets you feel what it must have been like for someone in that position... having to make daily life or death decisions for his men..... To me that is the real strength of SPWAW... You have to "pretend it's real" not just a game to be mastered with gamers tactics.



K G von Martinez -> (1/2/2002 7:53:00 PM)

AmmoSgt,
impressive chiffres, indeed. But wait a moment, weren't there some other nations involved in the fighting, too? If you're counting losses on the West Front, you should add the British, Canadian, French, Polish etc. May be the losses will be a litle more balanced then



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