RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (Full Version)

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Tenzan -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 1:22:05 AM)

One thing I noticed from playing 006 alot..I'm hooked on it, for some reason

Calling the IJN 6th Fleet a Kamikaze unit would be a compliment! at least Kamikazes have the offensive end of dying down pat.

However...I looked at the sub crews and they're pretty much trash..50/55 average. I haven't really seen too many other scenarios, so can't comment there, but, is anyone checking the crew skill?

but...all skill aside, US ASW does appear to be on crack, or at least connected with BALCO...My IJ subs don't usually even get one torp off before the 7 hit and sink special.



pad152 -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 1:39:19 AM)

ASW - things I think should happen

1. An ASW attack should make the sub run away, it seems way to often the sub just stays in the same place only to be attacked again on the next turn.

2. When a sub is spotted the sub should duck and run, dive and sail away several hexes before is returns.

3. Only one or two ships of an ASW TF should be able to attack a sub. I've seen where every ship in a ASW TF attacked a sub.

4. Subs should be damaged by near misses and try to escape more offen then sunk by direct hits.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 4:43:40 AM)

Allied ASW is too accurate at the moment and just about all the testers are in agreement. Something is going to be done about it as this is a priority issue I believe.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 5:47:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
And since we're talking about subs, Japanese sub-fired torps have to high a dud rate if you ask me.. My subs have fired roughly 20 times and 3 have been duds... thats 15% (most have been misses).. Is this historical ? And why when they fire 4 torps if ones a dud, they all are ?
Xargun


Anything close to this rate would be extrordinaraly high for the Japanese in 1941-42.
Their torpedoes (of all types) were some of the best in the world, and the most relaible.
2% would be a much more accurate figure. By 44-45 this changes, as "quality control"
deteriorated with the pressure to expand Japanese output. The US "dud rate" should
be about 50% in 1941-42 due to the faulty torpedoes, drop to about 25% in 43, and to
2% in 44-45---while the Japanese dud rate should climb towards about 20% in 1945



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 5:54:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun
And since we're talking about subs, Japanese sub-fired torps have to high a dud rate if you ask me.. My subs have fired roughly 20 times and 3 have been duds... thats 15% (most have been misses).. Is this historical ? And why when they fire 4 torps if ones a dud, they all are ?
Xargun


Looking into this too.[:)] No worries.

Anything close to this rate would be extrordinaraly high for the Japanese in 1941-42.
Their torpedoes (of all types) were some of the best in the world, and the most relaible.
2% would be a much more accurate figure. By 44-45 this changes, as "quality control"
deteriorated with the pressure to expand Japanese output. The US "dud rate" should
be about 50% in 1941-42 due to the faulty torpedoes, drop to about 25% in 43, and to
2% in 44-45---while the Japanese dud rate should climb towards about 20% in 1945



freeboy -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 5:57:44 AM)

is this perhaps a fow issue? Are those misses being counted as duds?
just a thought



Nikademus -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 5:58:31 AM)

no, not FOW. Same thing happening to me in my AAR. This one's been tricky to nail down though.



freeboy -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 6:02:06 AM)

I read in the database about all these different types of torps.. could you tell us which types you had problems with or where there several?



Nikademus -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 6:16:14 AM)

dont believe it was confined to one torpedo type.



doktor1957 -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 6:40:47 AM)

Something I recall from my reading said that when a pressure hull is holed at depth, the atmosphere inside ignites. There is no chance to close wt doors (they should be closed at GQ anyway). The explosion can rip the vessel to shreds.


Dave
San Diego



Black Cat -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 7:17:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Allied ASW is too accurate at the moment and just about all the testers are in agreement. Something is going to be done about it as this is a priority issue I believe.


It`s not consistant at all, as other posters have indicated.

In one Campaign Game start as the US VS the AI my ASW surface TF sank 2 Japanese Subs off Pearl on 7 Dec. and damaged another.

In another CG start as US VS the AI I`m up to 1/42 and have got only 3 contacts and have hit or sunk no subs.

Perhaps if all the testers are playing PBEM Scenarios they are seeing different results then those playing the AI.

Having said that, why not let the Game, especially the Campaign Game, get a wider exposure and more playing time, with more folks before the usual downgrading of the US starts up. I mean how can any judgements be made until a number of full Campaigns VS the AI are finished and reported on in the Forums?



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 7:43:05 AM)

I mentioned this earlier but I think I should give it its own post.
Using planes for ASW ops is completly useless. I havnt seen a single attack...and of course that means I havnt seen a single hit.
Subs feared planes more than depth charges from escorts. But in WiTP they can cruise around with impunity and never have to worry about air strikes sending them to davey jones locker.



Xargun -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 7:52:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

is this perhaps a fow issue? Are those misses being counted as duds?
just a thought


Nope. If you watch the combat screen it shows the sub firing... Then either "Torpedoes Miss", "Torpedoes Failed to Detonate" or you get to watch a nice little explosion [:'(] Definate duds.

Xargun



freeboy -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 8:20:25 AM)

I have the screen but not the text probably not seeing it.. thanks again



Drongo -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 10:09:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I mentioned this earlier but I think I should give it its own post.
Using planes for ASW ops is completly useless. I havnt seen a single attack...and of course that means I havnt seen a single hit.
Subs feared planes more than depth charges from escorts. But in WiTP they can cruise around with impunity and never have to worry about air strikes sending them to davey jones locker.


In my testing, air ASW attacks occur less often than in UV. They will hit subs but don't hold your breath while waiting (although I've still managed to create air ASW killing grounds in the right circumstances).

They perform a vital role in detecting the presence of subs in a location and are excellent support for TFs in the area.

The more ASW a/c in the air, the more experienced they are and the shorter the distance flown to the sub, the better the chance of detection. The better the detection level, the more likely a sub will be attacked and hit.

But if you've already taken all this into account for your opinion, fine. [;)]

Cheers



Xargun -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 10:18:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I mentioned this earlier but I think I should give it its own post.
Using planes for ASW ops is completly useless. I havnt seen a single attack...and of course that means I havnt seen a single hit.
Subs feared planes more than depth charges from escorts. But in WiTP they can cruise around with impunity and never have to worry about air strikes sending them to davey jones locker.


I've seen my patrol planes attack enemy subs a couple different times. I actually got a hit on one sub as well from patrol planes. BUT, they only had their cannons, so not much damage was done.

Xargun



freeboy -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 10:52:11 AM)

my ijn sugs got straffed when they where transiting.. but when "on station" not nearly as frequently it appears



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 10:56:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Allied ASW is too accurate at the moment and just about all the testers are in agreement. Something is going to be done about it as this is a priority issue I believe.


It`s not consistant at all, as other posters have indicated.

In one Campaign Game start as the US VS the AI my ASW surface TF sank 2 Japanese Subs off Pearl on 7 Dec. and damaged another.

In another CG start as US VS the AI I`m up to 1/42 and have got only 3 contacts and have hit or sunk no subs.

Perhaps if all the testers are playing PBEM Scenarios they are seeing different results then those playing the AI.

Having said that, why not let the Game, especially the Campaign Game, get a wider exposure and more playing time, with more folks before the usual downgrading of the US starts up. I mean how can any judgements be made until a number of full Campaigns VS the AI are finished and reported on in the Forums?


Black Cat. The retail version has the same ASW build as the last few Beta Versions. This was not drawn based on a few days playing by new purchasers but by a few months of beta testing. No shot from the hip happening here.



Raverdave -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 1:29:59 PM)

Just as a temp fix for the IJN players.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........Yes there is a problem with the Allied ASW but leaving your subs in the same hex turn after turn is asking for it.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 1:46:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave
.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........
Good advice.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 4:31:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Just as a temp fix for the IJN players.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........Yes there is a problem with the Allied ASW but leaving your subs in the same hex turn after turn is asking for it.


And don't concentrate in one area, spread the pain. Force him to thin his escorts to protect each convoy etc. Less escorts, less chance to die.



Grotius -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 5:26:10 PM)

I'm glad this is being looked at.

Slightly off-topic: I've finally made it to Day Three of the grand campaign (playing as the Allies), and I was interested to see that one of my level bombers actually attacked a submarine along with two other surface ships, and I saw the attack in the combat animations. I don't recall seeing this in UV. Kinda cool.



riverbravo -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 5:37:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

IJN depth charges seem too accurate as well. But they seem to find subs alot less.
I havnt played the IJN near as much so other will better be able to testify to the effectivness of the IJN side.


I think the IJN depth charging is about right.

Like you said,a lot of times they dont spot the sub in deep water.



rawink -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 5:54:10 PM)

It has been mentioned that aircraft attacks on SS are useless.

I must put in my own experience so far.. Dutch DO's flying from Java have been hell on the Jap subs around the area. 3 Kills so far and a few damages. 1 was a RO class sub went down from 1 attack. I was impressed.

But, yeah, my ASW TF's are the fist of an angry God right now.. if I send them out like 10DD strong.. subs die.. like stomping a bug dead



kaleun -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 6:38:08 PM)

Except for large ASW groups, neither the AI nor my forces have been that good at ASW in my game. Maybe it's just the way the die rolls in my case.



The Gnome -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 7:31:46 PM)

I haven't seen any issue with lethality of airbased ASW platforms. Well maybe a little on the low side, but I see hits every couple of turns and have seen one aircraft sink a sub with two hits on the same attack (sub listed as sunk by a 500lb bomb). This may be due to two factors, jusy after the PH raid Hawaii is a target rich environment so I'm getting a lot of chances. And every air unit that's remotely in a condition to fly >40% of the squadron assets undamaged and moral >30% gets switched to ASW patrol at 100%.

Granted compared to the 1-DMS 4-DD Hunter-Killer groups of death the air seems impotent but I think they're closer to the truth than the sea based ASW.

Also if FoW is toggled on I probably shouldn't see the sub name that I'm attacking.



Nikademus -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 7:53:33 PM)

The problem only exists on the Allied side, particularily if 6+ escorts are used. I ran many many tests on ASW for both Japan and Allied, early and latewar period.



Charles2222 -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/7/2004 9:26:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Just as a temp fix for the IJN players.................MOVE YOUR SUBS..........Yes there is a problem with the Allied ASW but leaving your subs in the same hex turn after turn is asking for it.


Yes, I think the majority of them are spotted on turn one already.



Jorm -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/8/2004 3:58:23 AM)

Ive had reports of quiet a few hits on japanese subs in the lower left report screen whilst the turn is running
Ive not lost any sunk but i have had 2 damages by japanes a/c and i have 'reportedly' at least attacked a few japanese subs with ASW patrol aircraft



siRkid -> RE: Something has to be done about Allied ASW (7/8/2004 4:44:37 AM)

Its on the list.



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