play as minors? (Full Version)

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denshiblocks -> play as minors? (7/8/2004 11:06:31 PM)

i appologize if this has been asked before, i am new to the board but i did a quick search of the forum and didnt see it. i was curious if the rules will allow play as a minor? ive always thought it would be interesting to play as sweden, or one of the italian minors - just from the point of surviving as an independant amongst all the political influences.

seth



Alexander Seil -> RE: play as minors? (7/9/2004 12:18:40 AM)

Hehe. If Matrix ever released a game with EU-style one-prov minor world conquests, it would discredit itself to the end of its days (which will come very shortly). As far as I know only Paradox can pull off things like that and still get good sales and decent reviews (because most reviewers are so dazed by the detail level that they don't really explore the way it all fits together). Alternatively, if minors with attitudes would be plastered in the game (as they should be, most of the time), everyone would scream that the game is hopelessly skewed in favor of major powers.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: play as minors? (7/9/2004 4:54:29 AM)

Seth:

Nope, you cannot play as a minor in this initial release HOWEVER, we have discussed a scenario that would allow Sweden to be played as a major since we've seen the request to play Sweden a few times. I suspect it would be tough to play them since they would probably end up as a Russian/British puppet (Do as I say or else... ) and this might not be too fun??? Fun to think about and who knows in our later updates ... you never know...???

Thank you



Nordiska -> RE: play as minors? (7/9/2004 6:29:20 AM)

Sweden gets my vote for a playable nation[:D], always love a challange, even if i have to wait for a patch/expansion to play Sweden.



ardilla -> RE: play as minors? (7/9/2004 10:34:43 AM)

I agree with you, I preffer to play fun Sweden for a short time holding back Russia and GB than other countries.

And of course, it could be nice to see the effect in the game if you allow 10 players...diplomacy will be the KEY (Poland, Sweden and US)...I wont mind to be a Beta Tester of this option [;)]

About the fact that playing as Poland or Sweden could be "short" if you get wipped by other more powerfull players, is not a big deal, you just can start another pbem game, so I give my vote for a try of Sweden and other countries after are wellcome.



denshiblocks -> RE: play as minors? (7/9/2004 11:05:57 AM)

im not too disappointed, im sure it would have just been a waiting game playing as a german or italian state until the majors vice clamped in on the hijinx. im just glad this game is getting made!

seth



eg0master -> RE: play as minors? (7/9/2004 12:30:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: denshiblocks
im just glad this game is getting made!


I second that! [:)]



rodo_benzo -> RE: play as minors? (7/11/2004 6:23:19 AM)

Well, EIA is not Europa Universalis. I don't see why we should be able to play minors in EIA ?! (in fact, in EU neither but it's fun in the PC version lol)

But in a pure Napoleonic grand-strategy wargame like EIA I definitely don't see the point to play a minor ...



denshiblocks -> RE: play as minors? (7/11/2004 6:54:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rodo_benzo
But in a pure Napoleonic grand-strategy wargame like EIA I definitely don't see the point to play a minor ...


in the paper version, certinaly not - but the PC version already has AI for all the minors (or am i assuming that?). if by grand-strategy you mean build the largest army and roll over opponents, you may be right - but i find it more fun to take a weak country and build them to success that outweighs the history of the period. EiA is not a static historical recreation, but a theoretical... what would you have done if your borders were surrounded by hostile forces?

i think diplomacy with minors could be a very interesting aspect of the game. certianly to play as a minor would almost always end in defeat or subjugation... but its fun to think of taking a venitian fleet with a corp as an invasion force to some north african port. :)

that being said, i wont fault matrix for not including it, its not in the paper version, so i wouldnt expect it, and they seem to have their hands full getting it all together as it is :)

seth



pfnognoff -> RE: play as minors? (7/11/2004 10:33:49 AM)

Well, in EiA, diplomacy is the most important factor. But I think that nothing you can say, if you are a playing some central european minor could make me stop and not conquer you if I'm one of the big guys?

My group and I have played several games with EiH diplomacy with minors rule, and still all the minors were conquered the same way as before with the original rules, because the minors are here just as a source of manpower for the major powers...

The only real exception to this was Sweden, which is big enough, and far enough to still be not conquered after like six months into the game. That is why they have only made 8 player version (with Sweden) as an addition to the original rules. And that would be nice to have in the PC version, but maybe with some later patch or expansion.



EarlPembroke -> RE: play as minors? (9/27/2004 1:00:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pfnognoff

The only real exception to this was Sweden, which is big enough, and far enough to still be not conquered after like six months into the game. That is why they have only made 8 player version (with Sweden) as an addition to the original rules. And that would be nice to have in the PC version, but maybe with some later patch or expansion.


Please count me among those who want to play Sweden. Especially if there is some editability. Then in addition to being hopefully a more effective leader of the state than Gustavus IV, you could explore what would happen if a brilliant general appeared in Sweden (and maybe how it would be if said brilliant general had developed an artillery core). [8D]



peskpesk -> RE: play as minors? (9/27/2004 8:35:29 AM)

Sweden gets my vote anytime!!! [&o] I love a challenge! [:)]

And maybe in Computer Empires in Arms version 2.X we can have include
the expanded map (Follow the link) US MAP
and have the US join the fun![:D]

As always new countries are OPTIONS!



Ozie -> RE: play as minors? (9/27/2004 4:30:15 PM)

The US map looks GREAT! [:)]

Could you link rules related to it?



Manfred -> RE: play as minors? (9/27/2004 11:35:42 PM)

I don't see the point to play USA in EiA [&:]
I don't think that they can do anything interesting (overlord in 1814 ?) in this "european wars" game.



EarlPembroke -> RE: play as minors? (9/28/2004 5:30:26 AM)

There should not be any invasion of Europe by the USA. I think it is a nation primarily to deprive European nations of income and possibly tip the balance that way (in reality it did sap a bit of British strength that otherwise would have faced Napoleon, maybe in the Peninsular campaign...).



ardilla -> RE: play as minors? (9/28/2004 10:18:37 AM)

Well, actually I think it does, indirectly, but it does.

Somehow is another way of getting trade incomes and not only by GB, that it is real.
Also, if GB goes to war with US it is more realistic and makes GB move troops and ships to US.

But, of course, some people says that is a boring country to play, since it doesnt get involve in many direct wars in the game, only against indians, british in Canada and maybe spanish...but it is not the same playing US in a boardgame than by PBEM.

But we have to say that it was a growing power that could affect European wars, only by money most of the time, but money is a big deal in this game and if GB is at war with US is not like in original game (loses 15 $ and has to pay 5 VP to end the war).

IMHO.

Regards.

P.S. Also Spain gets southamerican territories, and ports, GB gets Canada and, even that it was a European war, the colonies and the war where everywhere, so it could be considered a WW.



peskpesk -> Play as the USA (9/28/2004 11:35:08 AM)

In the version 4 of EiH rules is the US controlled by France when the war happens between the US and GB.

But a independent US could be fun too. Lots of things to do.
War with Mexico, Indians, Texas rebels, Trad war with the GB, Independence war with GB, war over colonies, war with France in Canada and with the Spainish over gold control etc.



Nordiska -> RE: Play as the USA (9/28/2004 3:46:21 PM)

I say Sweden as a 8th power should be added before the USA. Just my opinion.



ardilla -> RE: Play as the USA (9/28/2004 4:57:25 PM)

Of course, if MG is thinking about adding new Major Powers like Sweden and US, they should also think about Poland.

But, at least Sweden and US basically, for the first or second patch!??! [;)]



Ozie -> RE: Play as the USA (9/28/2004 6:11:38 PM)

Poland is a real possibility if 1740's scenario is implemented. The succession of Austria.



1LTRambo -> RE: Play as the USA (9/28/2004 6:16:52 PM)

Matrix Games could go very far with the concept of bringing additional players into the game. I will address each in order.
The United States. The problem with the U.S. is that Empires in Arms is a European game.
Bringing the U.S. in as a major player would take the focus from Europe and move it to a global aspect. Then you would have to add additional empires through out the world, ei: Aztecs in Central America, Indians and Chinees in Asia, Zulus in Africa, etc.
Sweeden. Sweeden makes sense because they are a minor that is powerful enough to fend for itself and is in a position geographiclly that could survive against major powers such as England and Russia. However, I can not see Sweeden being capable of expansion because all of the other potenital conquests that Sweeden has would be gobbled up by the other majors.
Poland would make sense if Matrix could program an AI that would control Poland once it is declared a state and it could come in at an unspecified time in the game, or not at all. The problem with Poland is that they have land and man power that, again, the majors would want to gobble up.
This would also be true of Italy.
I therefore think that the game as it exists is the most plausable. Anything else would detract from the game instead of add.



YohanTM2 -> RE: Play as the USA (9/28/2004 7:03:10 PM)

The other option for expansion would be for Matrix to port ADG's new game 7 Ages [:D]

http://www.a-d-g.com.au



Forward_March -> RE: Play as the USA (9/29/2004 8:15:12 AM)

I agree with Rambo. Sweden is just too weak, it's heyday was long past. I've never seen Sweden NOT gobbled up by Russia in the first 6 months of a game of EIA. How would tiny Sweden give up 3 provinces if it had to sue for peace? Who would it's leaders be? Karl XII and Gustavus Aldolfus have long been dead.
Which Allies could come to it's aid when Russia decided to invade? A France under blockade from Britain? Prussia or Austria facing warily to their west? Spain or Turkey? Or Britain with it's feeble army. Really guys, there is no point.

That goes the same for any of the minors. The only one in central Europe with any population at all, Bavaria which had 3 million souls in her borders, could barely put 40,000 men in the field. Bavaria could only survive with French patronage. Still, pointless.

Poland? You guys forget why Poland was carved up in the first, second, and third instances. The good old Liberium Veto. Simply stated, it meant that if one member of the Polish Parliament (or whatever it was called) voted no, each initiative failed. No majority rule, therefore nothing ever got done. That aside, who would defend her? None of her neighbors, that's for certain. Pointless

Then, the good Ole US of A. That'd be just too much of a good thing. A powerful nation untouchable by anyone...even Britain. Also the Americans really had no interest in a European war. It's hard enough to keep 7 players in a game...how you gonna keep 8 involved. It's better left the way it is.



Murat -> RE: Play as the USA (9/29/2004 8:36:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Forward_March
Then, the good Ole US of A. That'd be just too much of a good thing. A powerful nation untouchable by anyone...even Britain.


Ummm......I am all patriotic and proud of my nation and all but we got our butts kicked in the War of 1812 and the British were not even taking our theater seriously. If we had not managed a bluff at the fortifications of Baltimore the war would have ended with us being returned to the Crown and Madison swinging from the gallows. As it was we were lucky to be returned to the status quo (New Orleans was won AFTER the peace don't forget).



YohanTM2 -> RE: Play as the USA (9/29/2004 4:24:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Forward_March
Then, the good Ole US of A. That'd be just too much of a good thing. A powerful nation untouchable by anyone...even Britain.


Ummm......I am all patriotic and proud of my nation and all but we got our butts kicked in the War of 1812 and the British were not even taking our theater seriously. If we had not managed a bluff at the fortifications of Baltimore the war would have ended with us being returned to the Crown and Madison swinging from the gallows. As it was we were lucky to be returned to the status quo (New Orleans was won AFTER the peace don't forget).


If England had really focused on the US theatre in 1812 you are right Murat, I think tea would be the drink of choice in the US. At least until you had another revolution [;)]



Ozie -> RE: Play as the USA (9/29/2004 8:09:50 PM)

Sweden is not that undefensible. Finland could fall but if Sweden has it's fleets Russia has hard and expensive time to march over land to Sweden. I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done. Espescially if the map is changed to include all the rivers there should be between Finland and Sweden.



ardilla -> RE: Play as the USA (9/29/2004 9:07:49 PM)

I agree with Ozie, Sweden was a powerfull "minor" country in that era.

If i remember well, the russians had many difficulties to attack and defend from King Gustavus, the navy was strong and army too, besides the size of course.

I didnt played the scenario with sweden as 8th player, but it looked nice to me.

Maybe, some balance should be made, like the one where ships cost only $8 to sweden and maybe Russian should had to start the campaing with half of the fleet in the baltic and the other half in the south....

Is a candy for russian or GB the north territories, and with an 8th player like Sweden this could not be such a candy.

I would not mind to play it, since it is a pbem game, if I am out of the game I will start another one, well, actually I think I will start 3 or 4 the day I download the game from MG online store [:D]

Another think I will like to talk about is the global scene of the game and wars in the 1700-1800s.
The main target was Europe, but Napoleon was also looking abroad and could be considered a world war, with colonies and trade as the major point!

Regards.



megalomania2003 -> RE: Play as the USA (9/30/2004 2:38:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ardilla
Is a candy for russian or GB the north territories, and with an 8th player like Sweden this could not be such a candy.

I would regard the Northern territories as even sweeter candy with an 8th player. Now there would also be political points to have and -

As Russia I would never be able to accept someone holding Finland (to big a threat to Petersburg)

And as GB I would never accept a Sweden with the Danish fleet. Especially not considering the ships that Sweden would build (and his army is too small to gobble up much cash.

So do not play Sweden with me around. I would give it 1-3 years exsistence.



eg0master -> RE: Play as the USA (9/30/2004 5:31:10 PM)

Playing Sweden might be nice if you have someone extra that is not likely to play the game to the end. Or a way to introduce someone new to the game. "We" have introduced a few 3rd Reich players letting them play France or Italy. Playing Sweden in EiA would be something like playing France or Italy in a ww2 game: You'll have fun if you like to loose and you will eventually be eliminated.

If you have 8 players so eager to play, find 6 more players and play two 7 player campains instead of playing Sweden. I'm quite convinced almost everybody wanting to play sweden are swedes in the samw way some US people want US in EiA.

I think there will be more important stuff to work in for future patches than adding a few doomed minors as human playable. Fine if you could play ANY minor as human (HOI did have that if I remember correct). But adding specific countries is no point. make them all human playable in that case and you could play Libya for a real challange... [:D]



yammahoper -> RE: Play as the USA (10/1/2004 12:05:51 AM)

Sweden as a player? Hmm. Here is how I see it.

Prussia either loses to Fr in war but kept large army or tells Fr Au is ripe and Pr will stay out of Fr business. Fr agrees. Pr talks with GB and offers Norway if GB helps take Sweden. GB agrees. GB declares war on Denmark and Sweden and Pr declares war on Sweden. British navies crush Dane and Sedish navies, Pr marches across straights into Denamark and watches single GB corp dice up Danes, then marches across straights into Sweden. GB places depot on fleet and supplies erstwhile ally as Pr marches into Sweden, crushes armies and captures capital. No more Sweden. IF Russia is a bot upset, he is offered Finland and an alliance with Pr.

OR Russia brings up Cossaks and uses them to make depots in front of him as ha marches into Sweden and kills them dead. No more Sweden.

I once saw Turkey win the support of Sweden and then BEAT the single corp on the single fleet Russia sent. Russia retreated to a port and LOST the war because he had no forces in the minor/Sweden at the start of the next turn, resulting in the Turk having Sweden as a Free State!

Yamma



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