Can the map of Australia be improved? (Full Version)

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akbrown -> Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 3:19:51 PM)

I have decided to open this thread because my posts in the Map and OOB comments thread have been drowned out by the numerous comments about OOB topics.

I think that Australia could be depicted better than it is on the WitP map. There are, in my view, some problems with the current map at the moment:

- The routing of railways is very innacurate.
- Darwin is shown connected by a railway/highway link, which is not correct.
- Some rail/highway links are missing.
- Some of the terrain is innacurate, although most if it is reasonably correct.

I realise that these problems do not have a huge effect on gameplay, although the way that Darwin is connected to the rest of Australia may have a considerable effect on its defence and maintenance. But these things bug me a great deal since WitP is meant to be a historical simulation. There has obviously been a great deal of care taken with the various OOBs, ship and aircraft stats etc., so why not expect the same level of accuracy in the map? Especially since Australia takes up such a large chunk of the map, and is an important, if not central, part of the theatre.

I decided to try to make an improved Australian map, and I have completed a first draft, which I am adding to this post. This map is only a rough, low resolution map, and it is a work in progress. A lot of it was drawn very quickly, from only a few sources, and there will be many small innacuracies in exact rail/road routes, terrain types etc. It is simply meant as a suggestion as to how the map could be changed. A better and more accurate version could be made later.

I am hoping that this map can provide some raw material into a process of improving the WitP map, at least as far as Australia is concerned. I believe that the actual appearance of the map in the game can be modded, as well as the bases, but it seems to me that the rail and road routes themselves are hard coded and would need to be modified by Matrix. I have no idea how willing they would be to do this.

Here is a short list of the mods that I have made:

- Rail and road routes corrected, and some new ones added where I think they may be important.
- Terrain modified (not much different from the current map, but I think mine is more accurate, although some of it is still calculated guesswork).
- A few new bases are shown, although I don't really know if it is a good idea to add new bases.
- Added a few rivers.

The bases that I have added are:

- Broken Hill: If resources represent mining output, then I think that this location should be a source of some Australian resources.
- Katherine: The terminus of the railway south from Darwin. I am not sure about this, the railway may have been exteded further by the time of WW2, so I will look into this further.
- Cloncurry: Terminus of the railway going west from Cairns.
- Geraldton: Terminus of the railway north from Perth.

I have only added these bases for illustration. it might not be a good idea to add more bases to Australia.

So - Am I just wasting my time in proposing changes to the Australian map?

As I said above this map is probably not very accurate as I drew it very quickly. Feel free to suggest further improvements, or point out faults with what I have done already. Any fellow Aussies interested in hepling out?

[image]local://upfiles/1070/Tq488330060.jpg[/image]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 3:23:47 PM)

I'm with you on this, good effort.

On a related note, why does New Zealand not produce anything? It's not all nervous sheep surely.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 3:43:37 PM)

If you are going to this effort, how about Exmouth Gulf farther up the coast from Geraldton? Used as a sub base until 43.



siRkid -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 4:20:58 PM)

Looking into it.



siRkid -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 4:21:37 PM)

PS your map is what caught my attention, good work.



Raverdave -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 4:30:17 PM)

Bloody good effort. I know that the current map of Australia has put a lot noses out of joint, and I for one would be the first to agree with your post.



52nd Lowland -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 4:45:45 PM)

Thats excellent work there...PS excellent Spifire there Raverdave :-))



Don Bowen -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 6:21:44 PM)

Please don't forget Thursday Island, which is on the wrong (north) side of the Torres Strait in the current map. Also, another possible base is the airfield complex at Coen, on the York Peninsula about half way between Cooktown and Thursday Island.

Don



kaleun -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 6:23:54 PM)

Do we really need to add more bases? It's complicated enough as it is IMHO



Captain Cruft -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 6:27:16 PM)

kaleun - surely if they were militarily significant in reality they should be in the game, no?

Not that I have any idea personally as to what's what ...



WhoCares -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 6:58:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

kaleun - surely if they were militarily significant in reality they should be in the game, no?

Not that I have any idea personally as to what's what ...

Problem with a new sub base as someone suggested above is, that it would require a level 8 (not sure about that), 9 or 10 port to work like a sub base, but I doubt that all sub bases had such significance to surface vessels...



Captain Cruft -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 7:01:11 PM)

It's port size 8 to get torps, 9 to get mines.

Unless you have a tender (AS or MLE) that is ...



UncleBuck -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 8:44:19 PM)

I am all for having a more accurate Austrailia. As for adding in bases, well if they were important to the war then they should be there. I beleive that if they can add in a genric base for Austrailia so that you could ferry planes why not add the actual bases that may keep you from having to use "gamey" tactics to do what was done in the real world.

Keep up the good work.

TANSTAAFL!



siRkid -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 10:25:40 PM)

Word from Developers is that this would be a major piece of work affecting play balance and a host of other things. I've been told to keep it on the list but as a low priority. Please feel free to keep the discussion going so if we decide to take the plunge everything is worked out.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 10:47:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

kaleun - surely if they were militarily significant in reality they should be in the game, no?

Not that I have any idea personally as to what's what ...

Problem with a new sub base as someone suggested above is, that it would require a level 8 (not sure about that), 9 or 10 port to work like a sub base, but I doubt that all sub bases had such significance to surface vessels...


Exmouth Gulf was just a size 1 base at most (the mosquitoes were bigger) , but had a tender there and fuel barges. Size 8 not needed, just a human player variable.



Brady -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/9/2004 10:54:09 PM)

I do like the Look of the Improved Map idea for Austraila, and I was woundering if we could get Portland on a River and turned into a Port like it was In the War, and Astoria as well, the Columbia River is and Was a Magor arty for shiping and ship building in WW2.



jrcar -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 1:26:08 AM)

Good work, well done!

The line extended south from Katherine to about another 3 hexes (Source "The never-Never line, the story of the North Australia railway")

I don't think we need more bases, the key ones are there.

The track from Wyndham goes to Broome, with a spur of about 2 hese to Derby. But that track was never caable of being used in a military significant way. I would be tempted to leave Wyndham, Derby and Broome unconnected. This means they need to be reinforced/supplied by ship, which is accurate (maybe they could produce some supply, but not much). Any military force in those bases needed to be supplied by sea. Even today it would be problemmatic to supply more than a Bde in Broome, Derby or Wyndham using the road to Darwin (and it is MUCH improved since then), and in the wet season no supplies can reliably get through.

Cheers

Rob



Pascal_slith -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 1:34:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Word from Developers is that this would be a major piece of work affecting play balance and a host of other things. I've been told to keep it on the list but as a low priority. Please feel free to keep the discussion going so if we decide to take the plunge everything is worked out.


Wouldn't this just affect games against the AI? If it is a PBEM game wouldn't it be possible to make these (and other inaccuracy) modifications?



akbrown -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 1:45:00 AM)

I'm glad that some agree with me about the need to improve the Aussie map.

I don't know much about military bases in Aus during the war, so the bits of information given about them so far in this thread are very valuable. If anyone has useful information in this regard please let me know.

Considering the message from Kid, I think that we should do the following:

- Come up with a basic Australian map, with just the terrain. This should be fairly easy to do by using my first version as a starting point and improving it. Eg. I just guessed which areas should be considered 'cultivated'.

- Add in the rails/roads and the big towns/bases that we know will/should be included.

- Try to come up with a concensus as to what (if any) extra bases should be added, their size and potential size, and just how the remote bases should be 'connected' (road/trail/nothing).

If we get a map which we can all (or mostly) agree on, then we might have a chance of getting something done. I am not sure why these changes would have such a profound effect on play balance? Perhaps you can provide more information on that Kid? Maybe if we know what those effects might be we can build in some compensation somehow. I am also willing to help out with the process as much as you need.

I also agree with the comment that it might be a good idea to include some 'generic' bases to represent capability if adding a lot of 'realistic' bases would introduce too much of an opening for gamey tactics. e.g Lots of little bases would need to be protected against small Japanese landing parties?

Sometime in the next couple of weeks I might go into the State Library in Melbourne and look for good sources of Australian maps of the interwar and war era. I don't know what they have but it might be useful. If anyone located in Melbourne is interested in helping out they can join me, or if someone has some good war era maps of Australia that they can email to me that would be very useful as well. My map is based on some online maps that I found but they are mostly from the 20s and low resolution.

Regards,
Andrew



Top Cat -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 2:03:47 AM)

I'll add my vote to the new Australia Map.

Also can someone tell me what the Northern Territory produced in the 1940's?
In WITP Darwin chugs out a substantial 300 resources.

Just looked at Aus. government website.

The population of the entire Northern Territory is listed as 8,000. of the then 7 million odd Australians. Must have been working hard.

They also provided ~1,000 enlisted men out of a total of 726,000+. So they had no manpower either.

Here's the site. Nice enlistment stats.
http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/enlistment/ww2.htm

Cheers
Top Cat



jrcar -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 2:27:25 AM)

Pre war NT exported:

cattle,
frozen meat and by products
peanuts,
some tropical fruit

some minerals as well I think (zinc?)


manpower was very tight, as war clouds loomed from 1939 a lot of southern labour was imported to build the military airfield and the forts.

Cheers

Rob



quote:

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

I'll add my vote to the new Australia Map.

Also can someone tell me what the Northern Territory produced in the 1940's?
In WITP Darwin chugs out a substantial 300 resources.

Just looked at Aus. government website.

The population of the entire Northern Territory is listed as 8,000. of the then 7 million odd Australians. Must have been working hard.

They also provided ~1,000 enlisted men out of a total of 726,000+. So they had no manpower either.

Here's the site. Nice enlistment stats.
http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/enlistment/ww2.htm

Cheers
Top Cat



Jim D Burns -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 5:19:07 AM)

While I'm all for historical accuracy, the problem with cutting up the railway links is then we somehow need to simulate the local shipping used to keep western and northern cities in supply. Military cargo ships aside, I'm sure there were hundreds if not thousands of smaller commerce vessels used to effectively 'act' as the railway link to Darwin, Derby, etc.

Wouldn't it be better to allow a rail line in place of roads to simulate the sipping, rather than tie up military shipping that was used for other things during the war?

I'm actually torn on this one, since I usually fall on the side of historical accuracy over ease of play, but commerce shipping isn't a part of the original game design. So perhaps in this instance using a rail link with a note in the manual about what it is simulating might be the better solution. After all including a bunch of small commerce ships that simply sail between the east and north for 1500 turns or so would be tedious to the extreme. Basic supply should be maintained via rail with military stockpiling brought by the military cargo vessels at the players option.

Or perhaps create some invisible sea rail line connection that would accomplish the same task that a normal rail link would. At sea the line wouldn't be able to be cut by ground troops, so perhaps that would be a more accurate representation of the civilian commerce fleets of small vessels.

Jim



jrcar -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 7:11:25 AM)

Definately not hundreds... maybe 5-10 :)

The issue is you can assume the population (which isn't modelled) can be handled by the small coastal shipping(which isn't modelled). But as soon as you put a military unit there you need to keep it resupplied,and that should have an impact on your current shipping because the coastal shipping would not have been enough.

I just can't emphasis enough the remoteness... even today. I know of been to all these places (I was an Army survey and intelligence officer). I also know a bit about the period history of the area. There is good reason why the only towns of any importance are on the coast, the sea is the highway in this area.

Cheers

Rob



quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

While I'm all for historical accuracy, the problem with cutting up the railway links is then we somehow need to simulate the local shipping used to keep western and northern cities in supply. Military cargo ships aside, I'm sure there were hundreds if not thousands of smaller commerce vessels used to effectively 'act' as the railway link to Darwin, Derby, etc.

Wouldn't it be better to allow a rail line in place of roads to simulate the sipping, rather than tie up military shipping that was used for other things during the war?

I'm actually torn on this one, since I usually fall on the side of historical accuracy over ease of play, but commerce shipping isn't a part of the original game design. So perhaps in this instance using a rail link with a note in the manual about what it is simulating might be the better solution. After all including a bunch of small commerce ships that simply sail between the east and north for 1500 turns or so would be tedious to the extreme. Basic supply should be maintained via rail with military stockpiling brought by the military cargo vessels at the players option.

Or perhaps create some invisible sea rail line connection that would accomplish the same task that a normal rail link would. At sea the line wouldn't be able to be cut by ground troops, so perhaps that would be a more accurate representation of the civilian commerce fleets of small vessels.

Jim



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/10/2004 9:28:04 AM)

I'm all for alternating the map and isolating the northern bases. It will make the Allied player rethink any move north into DEI from Darwin. I like it! Give all that allied shipping a job.[:)]



stubby331 -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/11/2004 7:32:18 AM)

G'day Brownie,

Great work on the modified map. Can someone post a screenshot of the current WITP Australian map so I can have a gander @ it for comparision?

I'm holding off buying WITP until the boxed CD comes out (I recently bought HTTR and its keeping me occupied)....



Platoonist -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/11/2004 8:20:23 PM)

Gd'day Stubby. Here is the WiTP map of Australia. Just included it as a link since I didn't wanna clog up the board with a slow-loading graphic.

http://ruhkarv.homestead.com/files/Aus.jpg

Glad to have the game but over time I would love the see anything that makes the overall map more accurate.



stubby331 -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/12/2004 8:03:12 AM)

Thanks Platoonist.

Hmmm... I think Brownie's map is an improvement. There have been mutterings for a while (way before WITP went gold) regards the shortcomings of the current Australian map.

With regard Jims point;
"Military cargo ships aside, I'm sure there were hundreds if not thousands of smaller commerce vessels used to effectively 'act' as the railway link to Darwin, Derby, etc."

I think you need to look at it in an Australian context... the population of these remote peacetime communities numbered in the hundreds at most. I't didnt take much shipping to keep them supplied in peacetime. But, if you wanted to build a military base the only practical way it could be done is by ship. There was simply no infrastructure in the North west of western Australia, nothing past Geraldton, we are talking bad gravel roads stretching over arid rough scrubland for thousands of kilometres... no rail, no towns, no people, nothing. It certainly would be a challenge to build something up in these areas, giving them rail is a copout and makes it too easy for the allied player.

At the other end of the scale Albany (in the southwest) had a substantial natural port, good transport links to perth and did historically homeport American subs. Albany is typical of what was available in the southern states (apart freom the excellent natural port of course). Am I right in understanding that most small-meduim southern coastal towns didnt get a look in?


In the main I hold the responsiveness of Matrix in high regard. But, I think Matrix long ago put the question of Australia in the 2 hard basket.... we are, after all only talking about a minority of gamers we actually give a toss whether the Australian map is populated with anything much besides the bare minimum. (mostly Australians I figure). Hell, I'm still getting over the fact we had a win with the Beaufighter Fighter/bomber question (and that was over 2 years ago).....

My 2 cents worth... the amount of detail in this game is amazing. I would love it if Matrix did include historically correct ports/towns and transport infrastructure in OZ.

But I dont think they will...



Raverdave -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/12/2004 8:08:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stubby331



In the main I hold the responsiveness of Matrix in high regard. But, I think Matrix long ago put the question of Australia in the 2 hard basket.... we are, after all only talking about a minority of gamers we actually give a toss whether the Australian map is populated with anything much besides the bare minimum. (mostly Australians I figure).

But I dont think they will...

Actually, Matrix did respond to the (Aussie) testers during the build stage of the game, when the map of Australia originally didn't have Alice Springs.



Platoonist -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/12/2004 8:52:09 AM)

Seems odd that Australia's largest and most navigable river (the Darling) was left out. Perhaps Matrix figured no Japanese player would ever get that far south?



stubby331 -> RE: Can the map of Australia be improved? (7/12/2004 9:13:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: stubby331



In the main I hold the responsiveness of Matrix in high regard. But, I think Matrix long ago put the question of Australia in the 2 hard basket.... we are, after all only talking about a minority of gamers we actually give a toss whether the Australian map is populated with anything much besides the bare minimum. (mostly Australians I figure).

But I dont think they will...

Actually, Matrix did respond to the (Aussie) testers during the build stage of the game, when the map of Australia originally didn't have Alice Springs.


Hi Dave.
Yup, I had considered the Alice decision. Rated on its own merits, I dont really regard it as a significant concession. Call me harsh (or shirley [:'(] )....



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