German Tank Guns

German Tank Guns (Full Version)

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ILCK -> German Tank Guns (7/9/2004 4:02:49 PM)
Another sort of OT type thing. I'm in mid 1941 with my campaign as the Germans and I'm more and more impressed by what the Germans did in WW2 since their equipment isn't inherently better than their foes at this point. One thing I'm curious about, I'm on the IIIg and I'm still working the short barelled (at least the picture makes it look short) 50mm, the IV's still have short 75's and I have one unit with short 37's. Why did the Germans use the short barrelled main guns? Seems most of the other nations had longer barrells (again pictures might lie). Was it purely a cost thing or was their some doctrinal reason for this type of tank development?

Belisarius -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/9/2004 4:38:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ILCK Another sort of OT type thing. I'm in mid 1941 with my campaign as the Germans and I'm more and more impressed by what the Germans did in WW2 since their equipment isn't inherently better than their foes at this point. One thing I'm curious about, I'm on the IIIg and I'm still working the short barelled (at least the picture makes it look short) 50mm, the IV's still have short 75's and I have one unit with short 37's. Why did the Germans use the short barrelled main guns? Seems most of the other nations had longer barrells (again pictures might lie). Was it purely a cost thing or was their some doctrinal reason for this type of tank development? A little bit of both. The 75mm is really easy - the PzIV was initially developed as a support/breakthrough weapon, and on paper it didn't need a long-barreled gun. The 75 L/24 is a good infantry support weapon and can deal with heavier targets in short distances. For which it was intended. The 37mm was the prime AT gun when the PzIII was developed. This was pretty much the case for all armies. It did the job in the 30's, unfortunately (or should we say fortunately), tank protection outpaced gun improvements in the early war years. Introducing a long barrel wasn't just to say "hey! we got a long barrel! let's bolt it in!" As always, you needed development of ammunition, a mount that will fit the turret, trials in the field as well as static ones, documentation, implementation etc etc. So, it's a combination of technology outrunning the design and also the tanks finding themselves in roles they weren't intended to be. And then again it wasn't always clear what was the best. For the Panther, Guderian was initially very opposed to equip it with the 75mm L/70 gun as he considered the 75 L/48 to be adequate, and that was already in tested and in good use. Why then use time and resources on a completely new tank gun? In the early years, it's not the gun that makes the German tanks good. Neither is it the armor. They are outclassed on both accounts by French and British tanks. What they excel in is speed. Use it. Lastly, about length: Other armies' tanks didn't have much longer guns, but they were bigger and quite good against German armor. The difference in armor made the German guns inadequate.

Poopyhead -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/9/2004 4:45:15 PM)
Actually, Hitler and Guderian wanted (and Hitler approved) the long barreled 50 mm for the Pz III before the war in Russia even started (it's the "M" version). Because of a typo, the short barreled 50 mm that the infantry had, was used instead. Consider how much history was changed by that one mistake. The Pz IV was intended originally as an infantry support tank, so it had a howitzer for most of its' early life instead of an armor defeating gun (even the Germans had to learn some lessons the hard way!). (Also, half of the "J" series and all of the "L" series of the Pz III had the long 50 mm gun.)

Belisarius -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/10/2004 12:48:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Poopyhead Actually, Hitler and Guderian wanted (and Hitler approved) the long barreled 50 mm for the Pz III before the war in Russia even started (it's the "M" version). Because of a typo, the short barreled 50 mm that the infantry had, was used instead. Consider how much history was changed by that one mistake. The Pz IV was intended originally as an infantry support tank, so it had a howitzer for most of its' early life instead of an armor defeating gun (even the Germans had to learn some lessons the hard way!). Not a typo. The Waffenamt decided that the "standard" 50mm would do for the upgraded PzIII, and scrapped the 50mm L/60 for the time being. When Hitler found out, he was - needless to say - furious. He never forgave the Waffenamt for that decision, and that's probably part of the story why he later on was so keen on controlling even the smallest details in tank designs. But as you say, had they been equipped with the longer L/60 from the start, it would have changed a lot. Not only Russia, but North Africa would have been different. Rommel sorely lacked them.

Losqualo -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/10/2004 1:19:21 AM)
[sm=00000116.gif] Bel did his homework! Great! [:)] Now wait, I'll find something to nit pick, even if I have to read that thread the whole night! [;)]

Major Destruction -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/10/2004 7:30:36 AM)
Von Mellenthin describes exactly the reasons why German panzers beat better tanks of French and British design, over and over again in his book "Panzer Battles" which can be had for only a few dollars from Alibris.com Read it. You will not find a better book for less money.

Belisarius -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/10/2004 4:43:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Major Destruction Von Mellenthin describes exactly the reasons why German panzers beat better tanks of French and British design, over and over again in his book "Panzer Battles" which can be had for only a few dollars from Alibris.com Read it. You will not find a better book for less money. Can only second that notion. "Panzer Battles" was one of the very first books I read on this subject. A very good read, and an easy one at that. Great for lazy summer days.

Poopyhead -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/13/2004 6:28:54 PM)
Sorry if I presume too much with the typo scenario. That the Waffenamt was to blame is correct. Guderian confirms this. I just can't see someone intentionally sabotaging the PZ III by using the low velocity 50 mm. Wouldn't he be choosing the firing squad by willfully disobeying Hitler's directive? It seems far more plausible that some mindless technocrat just got confused and had the nomenclature for the more common infantry gun typed into the orders by mistake. (I'm told that the present German government cannot go to war, because they no longer have the correct paperwork.) I have no hard evidence for my opinion, it's just a cop thing. Perhaps some day we will learn that the entire affair was just a successful operation of the OSS or the KGB!

Losqualo -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/13/2004 7:59:58 PM)
I don't believe in the typo theorie for the following reason: the HWA had to test and aprove the newly built tanks. I doubt that they had approved some thousand tanks with the wrong gun! More likely, for me, is that they had ordered already the L/42 gun (before Hitler gave his order) and mounted the L/42 nonetheless.

Belisarius -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/14/2004 10:44:47 AM)
Imagine...so much troubles for 90cm of cannon tube. [:'(]

Poopyhead -> RE: German Tank Guns (7/14/2004 4:58:12 PM)
Yes, but one of the great (but less well known) "what if" events of WWII. Did a few officers at the Heereswaffenamt "save Moscow" by their arrogance (or incompetence)? Probably not, but it makes studying history interesting! My favorite "what if" is if the battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz, and the battlecruisers Scharnhurst and Gneisenau had been built as aircraft carriers, and the pocket battleships as jeep carriers? Now we're talking serious beer and pretzels!

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