Rant....sorry to bring up again (Full Version)

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Tomus -> Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 2:20:22 AM)

So let me get this right:

£38.99 + VAT roughly = £44
Tag on a CD and VAT = £57

Thats nearly twice as much as a normal retail game and we get no box, no manual, no maps no nothing...Even at the base price of £38.99 its way over market rate.(would have paid it though with a box and manual)

plus I've seen Matrix charging even more for extra bits and bobs to be downloaded. I'm feeling pretty pi$$ed tbh. Thats hell of a lot of money ABOVE usual market costs to justify a purchase of any future Matrix Games and this is a real shame as I love the games to bits but I can't justfy that spend to myself or my wife when for the price of WITP I could get 2 x normal retail games. I know Matrix aren't normal retail games and cater for a niche market but then so does IL2, Combat Mission, Medieval Total War and they all came out normal price its not all just Kung Fu, Driving and FPS out there.

Now I know this has been done to death and sorry for bringing it up again, but I very nearly hit the order button today for WITP before I realised I was dropping nearly 60 quid on 1 video game that comes with nothing and so I cancelled out. And I'm annoyed as hell as I loved UV and really wanted this game but its out of my league.

I don't know how well sales are going but getting 2 people to spend £35 on a game rather than one paying £60 makes better sense to me. I have read the VAT arguement and in the UK 17.5% is always added to the cost of any product usually before purchase so I assume anything I buy already has VAT added. SO effectively for a standard £29.99 UK game release I am actually paying £24 so to be charged £38.99 is a whopping extra £14.99. I rant on.

Matrix does a great job with its games and this site is cool as is all the extra support....but its pricing me out the market. And that's my frustration.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 2:24:42 AM)

The VAT is not the fault of Matrix. For the last time...blame your goverment for taking it up the ass from the EU.
If you dont want to pay $70 for a game...then dont pay it. That is your right. But please stop spamming the forum with all the whining.

This is not directed at just you, but everyone who has been doing this.
Oddly enough I have seen very few people from North America and Canada whining about the price.



ravinhood -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 2:49:11 AM)

Heh, I'm from America and I think the price is too high. ;)



Cmdrcain -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 3:09:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Heh, I'm from America and I think the price is too high. ;)


All Prices are too High... and theres hidden Price increases.. I know a bit off topic... but I like Breyers Icecream well it's Half Gallon dropped to 1.87 and is now 1.75 quarts (2.00 is 2 quarts =half gallon in our nutty measures)

Sooo Less product... and its selling at same old price around $5

Oh yes prices are too high but even prices not high are high prices
when look at your getting LESS then did at same price..


Everything is too High Rant off..

[&o][:@]



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 3:12:00 AM)

Gunna cost me 94 Canadian, and I would rather have a 100 dollar game I WANTED than any two "average" games that are also likely only worth 25 bucks if that.

I might have to wait a good while to save that much, but I plan on doing it.



Didz -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 3:20:31 AM)

At the end of the day, if you want the game you will pay the price.

My only real beef at the minute is that the game can be acquired cheaper from the US than from the UK store. Whilst Matrix are entitled to charge whatever they like to UK customers it makes little sense when those customers can just order it from the US instead.

However, by their own admission Matrix are still working to sort out the DR mess and the prices have already been changed once so I'm just going to let the dust settle and see what we end up with before deciding where to buy from.



Paul Vebber -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 3:29:41 AM)

What is "market rate' for a WARGAME. IF you have been to anyplace selling board games you will find that the average is rapidly approaching 70$ for new games - "monster games" on the scale of WitP are 150+$

And these have much fewer man hours put into them than a typical computer game.

If you are judging "market rate" for wargames by the cost for the latest SimCity or Whack an Orc game you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

We have a very flexible pricing model with "budget" games like Campaigns on the Danube for as low as 25$ - mainstream games like StarShatter and Massive Assault for 40$ - "hard wargames" games like Korsun Pocket and HTTR for 50$ and "grognard" titles like WitP for 70$.

We think it "more fair" to offer a wide range of "scope" and base the price on the scope and effort that went into the title. WitP is selling fro the same price I bought PacWar for nearly 10 years ago. NOT MANY forms of entertainment have kept at pretty much the same price point for as long as computer wargames have. In the same time board games have at LEAST doubled in cost - largely because of the component costs. Programmer pay has gone up at least as much if not more.

The bottom line is if you want high quality "made in this century" looking games you are going to pay more for them in coming years. We will be offering 3 main price lines - our budget games to include bothe wargames and more mainstream strategy games in the 25-35$ range - our "mainstream" range of "potential mass market titels and medium complexity wargames range for 40-50$ and the "premium" of grognard "hard core" wargames range for 60-70$.

Those are the price pointe we and our design partners have to charge in order to stay in business. I think based on the scope and quality of our products the value you get at those price points are very appropriate.

We understand that some can't afford high end games, well that is why we will be working on budget titles too. The fact a game you want may not be at a price point you agree with is not typically arbitrary, but based on the number of people involved, the time and effort put into the game and the scope of the product. We can't caharge 25$ for a game that a half dozen people have spent 3 years working on and make any business sense. Similarly we are not charging 70$ for a game on a single battle game with no editor and a handful of scenarios.



Shaun Wallace -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 3:49:28 AM)

Paul,

Thats a very good post Paul and really explains why certain games cost what they do.

Coming form the UK, I have to say, anyone who is surprised at US prices being cheaper and ours being more expensive (this is a surprise??) have been living a VERY sheltered life. If you want a REAL shock, fly over and see how cheap things are, then fly back here and realise how bloody expensive everything is here.

Virtually ANYTHING that you can think of is way cheaper in the US, cars, consumer goods, clothes etc, BUT we have other things such as a welfare state, they are very different countries and pricing is very different.

Shaun



Hertston -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 3:51:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber


The bottom line is if you want high quality "made in this century" looking games you are going to pay more for them in coming years. We will be offering 3 main price lines - our budget games to include bothe wargames and more mainstream strategy games in the 25-35$ range - our "mainstream" range of "potential mass market titels and medium complexity wargames range for 40-50$ and the "premium" of grognard "hard core" wargames range for 60-70$.




I'm not going to argue whether some games (we seem to be talking WitP here) are too expensive or or not - you guys charge what you think will make the biggest profit, same as any other business. No problem with that, buying isn't compulsary.

What I will say, though, is that like Tomus, for me the "premium" price is too much to pay - at "mainstream" price you would have had at least one more WitP sale. I just hope the games I'm looking out for (any further AA games, KP sequels, TS:Alexander and Battlefields!) are priced at "mainstream" or lower price - or it's more lost sales [:(]



Muzrub -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 3:59:54 AM)

quote:

What is "market rate' for a WARGAME. IF you have been to anyplace selling board games you will find that the average is rapidly approaching 70$ for new games - "monster games" on the scale of WitP are 150+$


I've said once before I think your games are expensive, but this has been covered and since it takes years for a game to come I'm sure I can get the money together[;)]

But I have a question for all us Aussies out there!

How much (I know this depends on exchange rates which can change ie Aussie $ was 50 c to the US dollar, now its about 79c to the US- so please release it soon while the dollar is good!) But are there any extra costs for us, ie this VAT that the Euro's have a problem with.
If I was to buy combat leader cross of iron what are the extra costs if any, just a rough figure would help me out in terms of cost. Lets say our dollar in 79c US how much will it cost once I've signed on?


Also can I get a CD with the order, I recently suffered from a virus attack that killed my hard drive and I lost everything about 30 gigs worth of stuff! So will I have a hard copy of the game?
If I can get a CD is it imported from the USA or is there an Australian distributor?

Cheers,
Jamie.



*Lava* -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 4:48:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

What is "market rate' for a WARGAME. IF you have been to anyplace selling board games you will find that the average is rapidly approaching 70$ for new games - "monster games" on the scale of WitP are 150+$

And these have much fewer man hours put into them than a typical computer game.

If you are judging "market rate" for wargames by the cost for the latest SimCity or Whack an Orc game you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

We have a very flexible pricing model with "budget" games like Campaigns on the Danube for as low as 25$ - mainstream games like StarShatter and Massive Assault for 40$ - "hard wargames" games like Korsun Pocket and HTTR for 50$ and "grognard" titles like WitP for 70$.

We think it "more fair" to offer a wide range of "scope" and base the price on the scope and effort that went into the title. WitP is selling fro the same price I bought PacWar for nearly 10 years ago. NOT MANY forms of entertainment have kept at pretty much the same price point for as long as computer wargames have. In the same time board games have at LEAST doubled in cost - largely because of the component costs. Programmer pay has gone up at least as much if not more.

The bottom line is if you want high quality "made in this century" looking games you are going to pay more for them in coming years. We will be offering 3 main price lines - our budget games to include bothe wargames and more mainstream strategy games in the 25-35$ range - our "mainstream" range of "potential mass market titels and medium complexity wargames range for 40-50$ and the "premium" of grognard "hard core" wargames range for 60-70$.

Those are the price pointe we and our design partners have to charge in order to stay in business. I think based on the scope and quality of our products the value you get at those price points are very appropriate.

We understand that some can't afford high end games, well that is why we will be working on budget titles too. The fact a game you want may not be at a price point you agree with is not typically arbitrary, but based on the number of people involved, the time and effort put into the game and the scope of the product. We can't caharge 25$ for a game that a half dozen people have spent 3 years working on and make any business sense. Similarly we are not charging 70$ for a game on a single battle game with no editor and a handful of scenarios.


The best explanation put forth I've seen. Makes sense as well.

Wish you all continued good luck and thanks for the continuous flow of games.

Ray (alias Lava)



SKORPIO -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 8:55:22 AM)

It's been a long time coming, but all concerned with WitP knew it was going to be GOOD and it was going to be a MONSTER.....now its here and the vast majority of those lucky enough to own it tell us in the forums that it's EXCELLENT and GIGANTIC in scope......which just goes to prove the old adage "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR"......you may be paying a few extra shekels than norm, but in return you are getting the VERY BEST wargame available. I would say thats a pretty fair deal and hope you that you don't deny yourself the pleasure of owning and playinig WitP for many hundreds of hours to come.



Juba -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 12:02:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

The VAT is not the fault of Matrix. For the last time...blame your goverment for taking it up the ass from the EU.
If you dont want to pay $70 for a game...then dont pay it. That is your right. But please stop spamming the forum with all the whining.



Read the post and you'll notice that the VAT-less price is much higher for Matrix games than the VAT-ful price of the typical release in the UK.



Didz -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 12:58:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Juba
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
The VAT is not the fault of Matrix. For the last time...blame your goverment for taking it up the ass from the EU.
If you dont want to pay $70 for a game...then dont pay it. That is your right. But please stop spamming the forum with all the whining.


Read the post and you'll notice that the VAT-less price is much higher for Matrix games than the VAT-ful price of the typical release in the UK.


Yes. People keep getting hooked on this VAT issue. Which only really had relevance to the fact that the EU order form didn't handle it properly.

The fact is that even without the VAT added this game is more expensive to buy than normal mainstream games and more importantly more expensive to purchase from the EU/UK web site than from the US one.

Now I don't know if Matrix are happy with this arrangement but as a UK citizen I don't see why I need to pay Matrix anymore for a game than a fellow gamer in the US. Especially when I don't need to. I had intended to buy WiTP, as I have been waiting for it to be released over a year. But for the time being I am keeping my wallet firmly closed until I'm absolutely sure that the price I'm paying is right.

So, far people in Europe have been charged prices as low as £39.99 and as high as £58 so it just seems to be a bit of a lottery. The best option at present seems to be to download from the US site at the US price, but that means not buying a CD back-up.



Belisarius -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 4:38:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
So, far people in Europe have been charged prices as low as £39.99 and as high as £58 so it just seems to be a bit of a lottery. The best option at present seems to be to download from the US site at the US price, but that means not buying a CD back-up.


Just a thought....if you buy the download, does anything prohibit oneself from burning a backup copy?



Marc von Martial -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 5:37:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
So, far people in Europe have been charged prices as low as £39.99 and as high as £58 so it just seems to be a bit of a lottery. The best option at present seems to be to download from the US site at the US price, but that means not buying a CD back-up.


Just a thought....if you buy the download, does anything prohibit oneself from burning a backup copy?


No, you´re allowed to burn a backup copy for personal use.



Marc von Martial -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/10/2004 5:40:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

Coming form the UK, I have to say, anyone who is surprised at US prices being cheaper and ours being more expensive (this is a surprise??) have been living a VERY sheltered life. If you want a REAL shock, fly over and see how cheap things are, then fly back here and realise how bloody expensive everything is here.

Virtually ANYTHING that you can think of is way cheaper in the US, cars, consumer goods, clothes etc, BUT we have other things such as a welfare state, they are very different countries and pricing is very different.


Coming from Germany I "saved" about 75 EURO by buying board games at Origins and that INCLUDES a 40$ duffel bag I had to buy to get them home [;)]

Everything over here in Germany is way more expensive then in the US, literally everything. Well except for cigarettes if you take the New York price [;)]

I invited Keith Brors and Shaun for a small dinner. Even with a generous tip added I payed less (drinks included) then for a 2 people dinner (without drinks and tip) here in Germany.



*Lava* -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 12:21:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Didz
So, far people in Europe have been charged prices as low as £39.99 and as high as £58 so it just seems to be a bit of a lottery. The best option at present seems to be to download from the US site at the US price, but that means not buying a CD back-up.


Just a thought....if you buy the download, does anything prohibit oneself from burning a backup copy?


No, you´re allowed to burn a backup copy for personal use.


Why would anyone buy a download game without burning a copy... need to do that folks.

Ray (alias Lava)



riverbravo -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 4:35:03 PM)

I went on and DL'd the game from DR and got my disk a week later.

I thought 70 bucks was a bit much but when you look at the size of it and the amount of play you will get out of it it makes the price seem not so bad.

Im looking at about a year to finish the grand campaign and thats if Im lucky and really play the game on a daily basis.

Matrix cant control the laws of countries but the support that matrix gives is top notch and everyone benefits from good support.



Paul Wykes -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 4:36:01 PM)

I`m diving in here, but as I`m from the UK, I can sympathise.

The most Ive spent is £36.99 on a HPS title from a 3rd party (duchet.com) When matrix signed a deal with justplaynow.com I was really pleased. Games at afordable prices at last.

I purchased uncomman valor from there for £29.99 (including the infamous VAT) as well as titans of steel. I can see the need to charge higher prices for such quality titles. So £38.99 for WiTP seems fine to me (I suppose the increase reflects the larger title???)...but the VAT then kills it (yes, I know VAT is not matrix fault) I feel it is a shame that such titles are not avialable on justplaynow (for example), priced competively. No doubt there was a commercial decision not to sell the titles at such outlets.

I notice that the mamouth point of attack 2 is prices at £34.99 on that web site.

Just my thoughts. All that said, I no doubt will make a matrix purchase soon. FP Germany anyone[:D]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 7:25:37 PM)

I don't get the VAT issues, in Canada we pay 15% tax on everything we buy, you don't see us ranting and raving about it.

Taxes are the price of living in a civilized society. If you don't like them, go stay with the Yanks [:'(]

As far as War in the Pacific goes, it is a Advanced Grognard game that will very likely still be getting played 5 years after you install it. Name something else that you can get 5 years out of for $100 so I can go buy it too.



W Thorne -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 8:19:26 PM)

quote:

Taxes are the price of living in a civilized society. If you don't like them, go stay with the Yanks


Man that is a low blow!



Hertston -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 8:52:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Wykes

I purchased uncomman valor from there for £29.99 (including the infamous VAT) as well as titans of steel. I can see the need to charge higher prices for such quality titles. So £38.99 for WiTP seems fine to me (I suppose the increase reflects the larger title???)...but the VAT then kills it (yes, I know VAT is not matrix fault) I feel it is a shame that such titles are not avialable on justplaynow (for example), priced competively. No doubt there was a commercial decision not to sell the titles at such outlets.




To be honest, I'd pay the extra just to avoid the need for seperate patches. LarkinVB's comments on the next ToS patch don't exactly inspire confidence, "I fear for the worst. Two versions, not simultaneous. Its beyond my control. ! And the situation with the GMX version of Squad Assault was just farcical.



Reiryc -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 8:56:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: W Thorne

quote:

Taxes are the price of living in a civilized society. If you don't like them, go stay with the Yanks


Man that is a low blow!


Standard comment from yuropeans and canadians...



W Thorne -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 9:13:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

quote:

ORIGINAL: W Thorne

quote:

Taxes are the price of living in a civilized society. If you don't like them, go stay with the Yanks


Man that is a low blow!


Standard comment from yuropeans and canadians...


lol

I was a Canadian once. Got to the States and Texas as fast as I could.



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/11/2004 9:20:48 PM)

Wages in the UK and Germany are generally higher than the United States. It's a well known fact that European companies outsource a lot of work to the US because of lower labor cost. This is probably why the price is higher over there.



Didz -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/12/2004 12:22:02 AM)

Really[&:]

I thought it was the other way round. Which was way so may US companies are setting up over here and so many UK professional and health staff are heading west.



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/12/2004 2:05:06 AM)

Maybe for doctors it's better in the US, I'm talking about normal everyday workers... this is why stuff cost so much in Germany.



Cmdrcain -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/12/2004 3:37:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag


Taxes are the price of living in a civilized society. If you don't like them, go stay with the Yanks [:'(]




LOL! [:D][:D]

You THINK that USA is less taxed?

While Our sales Tax are lower like 5-7 pct unless I think you live in Taxuchutts, Some states add an Income tax, whch would be on top of your Federal Income tax, theres Gas taxes, then theres other Added taxes like on Booze and tobacco, then theres taxes like Property taxes, Intangiable taxes (a tax on things like stocks you own...)

Worse is that theres tax on tax on tax like you buy gas you pay both a Gas tax in the price plus a sales tax which taxes the item plus its included gas tax so your paying sales tax on the gas tax amount!

Toss in the various "fees" out Govt requires for many things
like yearly renewal of Car tags, those "fees" are in reality TAXS.


[&o][&o] [:'(]


You Think USA isn't as bad tax wise, please... if I could go where I'd just pay 15 pct tax on what I buy and no other taxes I'd love it, f course canada has other taxes sides the 15 pct...

And your 15 pct pays for more welfare stuff where USA gives us less welfare... lose job? likely lose house and wander...

Grummphhh



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Rant....sorry to bring up again (7/12/2004 6:56:48 AM)

Only two things in life are certain: death and taxes.



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