My own understanding of the production system (Full Version)

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AmiralLaurent -> My own understanding of the production system (7/17/2004 10:54:09 PM)

The manual shows two level of production (primary ressources and factory) when I will distinguish four levels:

1) Local production of ressources

Ressource Centers and Oil Centers generate ressource points, oil points, supplies and fuel. All are generated in the base of production and should be shipped where they should be used.

2) Local transformation of ressources

Manpower Centers will use ressources stocked in the same hex to create Manpower points, that are added to a general pool.

Heavy Industry Centers will use ressources and fuel to generate supplies and fuel, that are stockpiled in the production base, and heavy industry points, that are added to a general pool.

In the two last stages, there is no more need of transport and shipping. A heavy industry point created in Bangkok may be used on Japan or on Australia.

3) Global production of intermediary goods

Heavy industries points are used by all types of factories (aircraft, engine, naval and marchant shipyard, armament, vehicle) to generate respectively aircrafts, engines, naval points, merchant points, armament points and vehicle points, all are gathered in separate pools.

4) Final production and arrival in the unit

An air unit needing an aircraft will take if from the aircraft pool.

A land unit needing a replacement squad will use points of the manpower, armament and vehicle points pool.

Naval and merchants points may be used to speed the construction of ships.

....

Any comments welcome



Mr.Frag -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/17/2004 11:08:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

The manual shows two level of production (primary ressources and factory) when I will distinguish four levels:

1) Local production of ressources

Ressource Centers and Oil Centers generate ressource points, oil points, supplies and fuel. All are generated in the base of production and should be shipped where they should be used.

2) Local transformation of ressources

Manpower Centers will use ressources stocked in the same hex to create Manpower points, that are added to a general pool.

Heavy Industry Centers will use ressources and fuel to generate supplies and fuel, that are stockpiled in the production base, and heavy industry points, that are added to a general pool.

In the two last stages, there is no more need of transport and shipping. A heavy industry point created in Bangkok may be used on Japan or on Australia.

3) Global production of intermediary goods

Heavy industries points are used by all types of factories (aircraft, engine, naval and marchant shipyard, armament, vehicle) to generate respectively aircrafts, engines, naval points, merchant points, armament points and vehicle points, all are gathered in separate pools.

4) Final production and arrival in the unit

An air unit needing an aircraft will take if from the aircraft pool.

For Japan only the aircraft will also require the correct number of engines. These are another form of production just like aircraft. They have their own pools.

A land unit needing a replacement squad will use points of the manpower, armament and vehicle points pool.

Naval and merchants points may be used to speed the construction of ships.

Correct but they not only speed up, but actually run it ... No ship points, all dates in the ship arrival stop counting down. Each day a number of these points are expended to reduce the arrival date by 1 day. Speeding up this increases the countdown at the expense of double the normal points. There is a little more to it in that ships very far out don't actually burn points as they have not actually been started yet.

....

Any comments welcome



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/17/2004 11:26:41 PM)

As for ship building, I found the manual rather unclear but your explanation is helpful.

Well, that means that with its 1000 merchant shipyards points, Japan may build at the same time 50 transports with a durability of 20 at the normal rate or 25 at a quick rate (twice the usual price).

How can we see that a ship is building or isn't in the shipyard yet ? I notice that you can' change the build rate of some ships (MSW due 68 days after or an AP due in 2 years) but you can accelerate the production of the CV Aso (due in 1285 days), so this one has allready begun to build ?

As for engine and aircraft, I agree your point but ignore it in my (simplistic) explanation.



Mr.Frag -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 12:02:22 AM)

Pretty vague on how gary planned it, but I think you only pay for the last year *unless* you speed it up.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 1:35:12 AM)

If I deciphered correctly the manual, any ship on the list will see its arrival date reduced by one day if the delay is more than its durability * 10.

If the delay is less than durability * 10, then it uses shipyard points.

But you may use shipyards points to reduce delay once the delay is less than durability * 30.

So my own understanding is that ships are actually built during the last (durability * 10) days. That means 1850 days to build a Yamato battleship (or 925 at accelerated rate), 450 to build Shoho, 270 for a light cruiser, 110 for a Yugumo destroyer or 20 for a small MSW.

So I'm creating a new Excel file to manage this production.



Mr.Frag -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 1:39:22 AM)

Yep, sounds right, but keep in mind some ships are already within the pay period once the game is loaded.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 2:12:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Yep, sounds right, but keep in mind some ships are already within the pay period once the game is loaded.


Exactly what I am searching to find.

Here is the result for warships:

The following ships are at start building in naval shipyards (delay < durability * 10):
four CV : Junyo, Hiyo, Shinano, Taiho
two CVL : Shoho, Ryuho
two CVE : Unyo, Chuyo
two BB : Yamato, Musashi
one AS : Heian Maru
one CS : Nisshin
one AV : Akitsushima
one DD : Makigumo
twelve SS : I-11, I-27, I-28, I-29, I-30, I-31, I-32, I-33, I-34, I-35, I-36, I-176

Problem is that their total of durability is 1425 while Japan has only 1174 naval shipyards available at start... so all ships can't be built as 251 points are lacking. Wonder how the AI made the choice.

If you're right and you didn't have to pay until the last year, so Taiho and Shinano are free and Japan saves 295 points, so having an excess of 44 points.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 11:45:23 AM)

Finished to list the buildable AP/AK/AO/TK

At the start of the game, the merchant shipyards are only building:
_ one small TK
_ 8 large AK
_ 5 small AK
_ 2 large AP
_ 3 medium AP
_ 1 small AP

And only 345 points of the 1000 available are used.

So you can use part of the available ressouce far warship production or launch a big long-term expansion of the merchant fleet (you can accelerate the building beginning of 8 AO, 7 large TK, 8 small TK, 26 large AK, 7 small AK, 7 large AP, 5 medium AP and 2 small AP).

I sent to Spooky a file with the wole list of buildable Japanese ships (with historical release dates) and some formulas to try to have a view on Japanese ship production.



Spooky -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 1:51:42 PM)

This file is now available at the WITP Fansite



Rocco -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 6:56:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

This file is now available at the WITP Fansite


Most files are excel spreadsheets. What do I need to open them? and print them?

Microsoft office excel 2003 is like 200 bucks!! I hope I don't need that.

Thanks

Rocco



Mr.Frag -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 7:45:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rocco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

This file is now available at the WITP Fansite


Most files are excel spreadsheets. What do I need to open them? and print them?

Microsoft office excel 2003 is like 200 bucks!! I hope I don't need that.

Thanks

Rocco


There is a free Excel viewer on the Microsoft web site.



Rocco -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 8:47:05 PM)

Thanks Frag

Rocco



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 9:42:20 PM)

Sorry for the Excel files. It is the only tool I have to create forumlas and dynamic tables. Not than I am a fan of M...t in any way.



Mynok -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 9:43:45 PM)

Try:

Open Office

Free, runs on most platforms, and will read all but the most heavily formatted Excel documents just fine.



Buck Beach -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/18/2004 11:03:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

The manual shows two level of production (primary ressources and factory) when I will distinguish four levels:

1) Local production of ressources

Ressource Centers and Oil Centers generate ressource points, oil points, supplies and fuel. All are generated in the base of production and should be shipped where they should be used.

2) Local transformation of ressources

Manpower Centers will use ressources stocked in the same hex to create Manpower points, that are added to a general pool.

Heavy Industry Centers will use ressources and fuel to generate supplies and fuel, that are stockpiled in the production base, and heavy industry points, that are added to a general pool.

In the two last stages, there is no more need of transport and shipping. A heavy industry point created in Bangkok may be used on Japan or on Australia.

3) Global production of intermediary goods

Heavy industries points are used by all types of factories (aircraft, engine, naval and marchant shipyard, armament, vehicle) to generate respectively aircrafts, engines, naval points, merchant points, armament points and vehicle points, all are gathered in separate pools.

4) Final production and arrival in the unit

An air unit needing an aircraft will take if from the aircraft pool.

For Japan only the aircraft will also require the correct number of engines. These are another form of production just like aircraft. They have their own pools.

A land unit needing a replacement squad will use points of the manpower, armament and vehicle points pool.

Naval and merchants points may be used to speed the construction of ships.

Correct but they not only speed up, but actually run it ... No ship points, all dates in the ship arrival stop counting down. Each day a number of these points are expended to reduce the arrival date by 1 day. Speeding up this increases the countdown at the expense of double the normal points. There is a little more to it in that ships very far out don't actually burn points as they have not actually been started yet.

....

Any comments welcome



For the Admiral, Frag or anybody. Color me dense but the BASIC concept is unclear,and I am trying to read and understand the manual. I play the Allied side so a cut to the chase explaination is all that is needed at this point. Questions (of sort):
1) Heavy Industry converts resources to supply points, on hand, on a 1 : 1 basis and will they also produce fuel at 1 supply and one oil into 1.33 fuel? Is this double using of the same resource point at the subject site or if not what is produced first? How are these distributed to the other bases, by the supply convoy system (auto or human controlled) and overland?

2) Resource/ Oil Centers produce resources and oil as well as supplies and fuel. Are any resources/oil consumed in the production of these supplies/fuel? How are these distributed to the bases? Do I understand they do not have to be transported to show up in other locations? In orther words do United States produced go directly to Australia w/o having to be shipped? Also, can Australia use United States et al resources for supply (etc, etc) productions.

3) When I look at the Industry/Resource Availability screen under the Intelligence/Informaton menu resouces and oil are shown (eg) 25000 (100,000). What do these numbers represent?

Got a million questions but these will do for the moment.



Mr.Frag -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/19/2004 12:09:34 AM)

The fuel/supply kicked out by resource/oil production is a freebie.

The ### (###) = current production level (stockpiled points/goods)



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/19/2004 2:16:59 AM)

As an Allied player, you have little to care about oil and ressources.

To say it shortly, every turn:
_ every turn, each ressource center point will generate a supply point (free) and 1 ressource point
_ every turn, each oil centerpoint will generate 6 oil points and, it it is in a port, 1 fuel point

Then, the computer may move ressources and oil in two cases:
_ another base with Heavy Industry need them and is linked to the production center by rail or road
_ there is no need for the ressources but there is a port linked to the production center via rail or road. Ressources and oil will be moved here to be picked up by ships (automatically by the IJN auto-convoy system, but ships may and should be attacked, no magic moving here)

As the Allied player, you will see ressources and oil used in your HI centers and they will create more supplies (and fuel in port only) at the expense of oil and ressources.

The AI will move supplies by rail, road, trail or even trough the jungle when one base or one unit needs them. And you can't manage the overland supply move, so let's the AI do it.

On the other hand, fuel will never be moved by the AI and should be picked up by your ships.

If you play the big campain or the 41-42 campain, you should try to evacuate as much ressources and especially oil from the producation centers in DEI/Burma/Malaya before the Japanese take them. Japan really needs them !



morphin -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/19/2004 8:52:04 AM)

So as Japan if you have a free line of roads or/and rail between singapore and south korea you only have to ship resource and oil to singapore (from rangoon...) and the AI will transport it over land without any loses till south korea?


Thank's



Platoonist -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/19/2004 10:28:48 AM)

So...as an Allied player I don't have to ship oil and resources to Australia to keep it's domestic industry up and running? I know OZ creates resources but I don't believe it produces any oil.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/19/2004 10:58:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morphin

So as Japan if you have a free line of roads or/and rail between singapore and south korea you only have to ship resource and oil to singapore (from rangoon...) and the AI will transport it over land without any loses till south korea?

Thank's


I don't know if there will be no loss but yes theorically ressources and oil could be brought from Singapore to South Korea. But you have to throw back the Chinese from the Indochina border to free the rail line.

At the start of the game, Bangkok, Saigon and Hanoi are three HI centers linked by rail-road and the only place with oil is Saigon (10 000 stocked, no output). On turn 2, all three places have some oil and ressources, so they can produce HI points.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/19/2004 11:09:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

So...as an Allied player I don't have to ship oil and resources to Australia to keep it's domestic industry up and running? I know OZ creates resources but I don't believe it produces any oil.


Australia produces 5040 ressources and 450 oil (in port hex), that is 5040 supplies and 75 fuel each turn for free.
730 ressources will be used by manpowere centers (if they worke for the Allied as IJN).
Australia has 2910 HI points (only 30 inland, remaining in port), so has a theorical output of 2910 supplies and 3840 fuel points each day.... but needs 2910 ressources (that are available) and 2910 oil (badly lacking) each day.

The problem is that there is no way to find this oil on the map once you lost the DEI and Burma.
You will then produce 450 (75 * 6) oil in Australia, 450 in India and 1350 in China, all that will be used locally. The only place with extra output is the United States but after its own needs, only 580 oil a day remain... only 20% of Australia's need.

So I ask Matrix to increase the oil production in the States, so you can bring oil to Australia for the industry here, if it needs it. I don't think the Allied economy suffers oilf shortages during the war...
On the other hand, if the Australian economy is dependant on US oil, the strategy to cut the oil flow by taking Suva and the islands is even more efficient.



DrewMatrix -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/19/2004 7:24:46 PM)

quote:

So I ask Matrix to increase the oil production in the States, so you can bring oil to Australia for the industry here, if it needs it.


Me, I think that is a bad idea (Increasing the US oil to send it to Australia). You are assuming that the US is only interested in the Pacific theater. They aren't going to ship that oil to Australia! They are going to use every drop they have domestically. Or ship it to the UK.

Remember all the fuel/supplies/production going to the European theater.

Remember the US already on gasoline rationing.

I am grabbing all the fuel and oil I can out of the ABDA region before the Japanese get it, then the Aussies will be Oil Poor until I can grab back some of Indonesia, or until I have the spare shipping to move some of that small US surplus to Oz.



Kizsam -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/29/2004 7:33:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

As for ship building, I found the manual rather unclear but your explanation is helpful.

Well, that means that with its 1000 merchant shipyards points, Japan may build at the same time 50 transports with a durability of 20 at the normal rate or 25 at a quick rate (twice the usual price).

How can we see that a ship is building or isn't in the shipyard yet ? I notice that you can' change the build rate of some ships (MSW due 68 days after or an AP due in 2 years) but you can accelerate the production of the CV Aso (due in 1285 days), so this one has allready begun to build ?

As for engine and aircraft, I agree your point but ignore it in my (simplistic) explanation.


Hi

My understanding of the accelerated ship building is this:

To reduce build time by one day (normal build time) you expend one shipyard point per point of durability of the ship.

To reduce build time by an extra day (accelerated build time) you expend shipyard points equal to two times the ships durability.

In effect you are paying three times the shipyard points per day to reduce a ships arrival date by two days.

durability + 2*durability=shipyard points expended at accelerated production.

I hope I have explained that clearly enough.

Look forward to seeing your excell file amiral. [:)]

Regards.



esteban -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/29/2004 9:51:05 PM)

Hey, does anyone know if the Aussie/Indian/Chinese land & air replacement rates suffer if they lose resources or oil, or heavy industry? It seems that the reinforcements (ground, naval and air) are set, and not affected by production, at least for the allies.

But what about the replacements? Do Aussie replacement plummet if the Allies decide not to send oil to Australia? Or Chinese replacements drop of they lose Changsha and Yunan, which they usually do around the start of most games?



mogami -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/30/2004 10:45:41 PM)

Hi, At start the Allies can load quite a bit of oil in SRA and move it to Austrlia. Enough to run the place while waiting for USA shipments. 580 per day surplus means every month USA can send a full tanker to Australia. Just a few days of production from Palembang to Australia early on can make a large impact. There is a lot of oil. I think it might be better to load onto a tanker that is later sunk enroute to Australia then to leave it sitting at the port for the Japanese to capture. (If you've removed the oil stockpile and the oil center is captured in a damaged condition the Japanese get nothing while they have to repair it.



esteban -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/30/2004 11:43:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, At start the Allies can load quite a bit of oil in SRA and move it to Austrlia. Enough to run the place while waiting for USA shipments. 580 per day surplus means every month USA can send a full tanker to Australia. Just a few days of production from Palembang to Australia early on can make a large impact. There is a lot of oil. I think it might be better to load onto a tanker that is later sunk enroute to Australia then to leave it sitting at the port for the Japanese to capture. (If you've removed the oil stockpile and the oil center is captured in a damaged condition the Japanese get nothing while they have to repair it.


Yep, I feel kind of sorry for the Aussies, they are a bit on the "hosed" side in terms of their oil situation in this game. However, if you are going to run a big offensive out of Australia, I still think it is easier to run the U.S. below capacity, and send enough oil to Australia to run Aussie industry flat out, than to run the U.S. at capacity and ship all the resulting supplies to Australia.



Twotribes -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/31/2004 12:38:43 AM)

As I understand the rules, the Allied production is fixed, it doesnt fluctuate and isnt effected by lack of or access to Oil and resources.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/31/2004 2:11:15 AM)

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D664005



Grotius -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (7/31/2004 5:18:18 AM)

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think all Allied production is "fixed." Some on-map stuff is affected by oil and resources. E.g., aircraft construction in Oz.



myros -> RE: My own understanding of the production system (8/1/2004 2:22:35 AM)

The allied factories in game all need HI to run, same as Japanese. The only difference is the allied cant control or upgrade them. If you HI factories dont get oil they wont produce any HI points ... no HI points then no output from factories.

The only factories that this has any real effect on is melbourne and sydney aircraft production. (San diego and Seattle have aircraft factories also but oil is not a problem there).

Also because a HI factory that produces HI points also produces fuel/supply as a bonus effect getting oil into the system has that added benifit of increasing the supply of those items.

The Brittish region in India has no real need of oil as far as I know, from my games experience I get more than enough supply from the bases which give "free" fuel and supplies that I had no need to take oil up there. And they have no factories to worry about.

Austrailia will be short on Oil for the 2 aircraft locations, but they are pretty small factories so dont need a ton of HI points anyway. Aussy doesnt have an free source of fuel/supplies though so getting their HI working is a real benefit there. Nowhere near as critical as the Japanese need for Oil obviously, which is another good reason for getting it as was mentioned above.

I really wish the Allied production was as detailed and involved as the Japanese, after playing the Japanese side recently then going back to the allied I really missed being able to get my hands on all aspects of the production lines. Ah well ... maybe we can hope for an expansion or something :)

Myros



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