OK, I've added a bid field! (Full Version)

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Marshall Ellis -> OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 2:00:08 AM)

Hey guys:

I've added a bid field so that you can enter the winning bid for each major power which will then be added to that major power's VP requirement at the beginning of the game! You will still have to wrok out the bidding process before the game BUT this should allow you to implement the effects of the bidding in the game (Wheeeew! Wiping sweat off my brow as I'm bandaging my raw fingers from kbd fatigue).

[image]local://upfiles/4396/Ec890608198.jpg[/image]




sol_invictus -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 2:24:34 AM)

Sweet![&o]




ffak -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 12:12:57 PM)

I never play the boardgame and I read all topics about the bids but I d'ont understand what is that for? What do you bidding? thanks..




ardilla -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 12:15:15 PM)

You are the greatest Marshall!!![sm=00000436.gif]
Cheers for MG!!

Now lets wait for the game and all the scenarios.

Regards.




ktotwf -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 1:40:02 PM)

ffak, I think that bids go as follows: You bid on the country you want, and whoever bids the most gets the country. But the amount that you bid gets added on to the requirements for the amount of points you have to get to win the game.




Titan -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 1:59:41 PM)

The bid screen has just sold the game to me :),its a game all of its own,its has...excitment,anticipation,strategy,FOG,Eye candy,and of course you can win it




ardilla -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 2:59:42 PM)

You are right Ktotwf!!!

The problem is that the Victory Points (VP=points you get every 3 turns of game, each turn is a month) are a base to add the bidding, so playing without the bidding will "break" the original game.

But MG had fixed it, I am glad of it.

Now, this brings me another question...
There will be a screen where you can see all the countries and the VP and the total amount need it, % over the total, etc. or something similar Marshall??

And, as I see a combo box in the Scenarios...there will be more with the original game?!?!

Thanks and keep up the good work!!!




NeverMan -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 6:15:59 PM)

This is a great addition, and probably one of the more significant ones since the base of the game was coded.

I think I have the same question as ardilla: Is there going to be a screen to check the progress of who is currently winning?

example:

France is in 1st place with 67% of his total VP

or

Turkey is in 1st place with 70% of his total VP

so the current rankings being done by percentage of total VP at the end of that economic phase




Pippin -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 7:12:32 PM)

ffak, you may want to keep in mind that in other games the bidding is reversed. People may fight to bid lowest. E.G. In Axis & Allies there is a bidding war and who ever goes lowest gets to play axis and uses the bid as IPCs to buy extra units. Though, some newbies are so desperate to play axis they will often go to a negative bid!




ardilla -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 7:19:34 PM)

Yes, it could be, but since the bidding goes "off the game" with the players, you can kick that "game broker" before start the game.

No?

Now, lets see if anyone has time to work out a web page to resolve the bidding until MG gets out version 1.01 [;)]

Regards!!! I am so excited, I want to move my troops and my fleets!!!




Marshall Ellis -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/19/2004 11:58:13 PM)

You bet there is a VP status screen...

[image]local://upfiles/4396/Mj244955426.jpg[/image]




NeverMan -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 12:42:05 AM)

NNNNNIIIIIICCCCCEEEEEE! :) Sweet deal. Thanks.




eg0master -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 1:48:13 AM)

[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]




Forward_March -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 5:56:08 AM)

Great Addition Marschall! I fear all people will bid all of their available VP's to get what they want....otherwise they'll get Spain! When we played while stationed in Okinawa was drawing countries from a hat...finding anybody who wanted to be Turkey or Spain was like finding somebody volunteering for unrequired dental surgery.




ardilla -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 1:33:34 PM)

I respect you Marshall!!! [&o]

U r the greatest!! and MG of course [:'(]

Lookssss awesome!!

BTW, the towers are garrisons, right? What about a neutral flag in the bottom for those poor little minors? One for all or maybe the real flags could be REALLY COOL.

But, anyway, I can wait till version 1.01

I already recived my laptop, so I hope I can play this summer where ever I will be!!!!!

P.S. Marshall, if you were a woman I will invite you for a dinner [;)]




ardilla -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 1:45:59 PM)

I dont know why your "playermates" dont like turky or spain, I find both countries nice to play since you dont have too much headache in making your economic phase, conquering minors and be worried about Nappy.

And are countries that if you make a good diplomatic game you can be at the top in VP.

Of course, they are almost minors, both of them depending from FR or GR, but still nice to have such allies.

They are probably good countries to have fun and play your first EiA game!!




pzgndr -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 4:31:40 PM)

Is the game being playbalanced such that any country has a more or less equal chance to win the game, or is historical accuracy the goal and bidding a means to compensate for differences? I guess the question boils down to whether bidding is optional for personal preferences in an otherwise equal game or if it's a necessity for play balance.

Either way, the bidding process will help normalize the game among players who know the game and know each other's strengths and weaknesses. That's good. But for entering into new games with unknown players, it would be useful to know how the game is balanced and how to bid accordingly. Maybe provide some helpful suggestions in the game's Designer's Notes or strategy tips?




ardilla -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 5:42:22 PM)

The bidding is necesary for a play balance, IMO and what I deduce from the orginal game rules.

Since, the bidding is not included in the released version of MG, you can tell, from the bidding results if players bidded reasonably or not.

so if you find that a playerd bidded 100 VP for playing FR, you should quit this player from the game and look for another one.

Since the rules tells you that you HAVE TO BID an ammount for each country and that you can not bid the same ammount for different countries, this comes to a basic bidding of 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 & 1 for all countries, with whatever are you preferences.

So, from 7 to 1 will be added, at least, to each country basic VP before starting.
That is why we were "complaining" for it, because, it is one of the rules for the Grand Campaing game (1805-1815).

But of course this goes higher for FR and GB.
So you can find a bidding of 20-30 VP for one of the above ones.

Another problem is the ability of GB to win the game if nobody reaches the total VP needed. This can make a player bid very high for GB and then, with the other ability of GR of substract own VP from another country at war with, will make possible to GB winning even with a bid of 300 VP!!!!

But thats is another tale....




NeverMan -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/20/2004 6:49:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Is the game being playbalanced such that any country has a more or less equal chance to win the game, or is historical accuracy the goal and bidding a means to compensate for differences? I guess the question boils down to whether bidding is optional for personal preferences in an otherwise equal game or if it's a necessity for play balance.

Either way, the bidding process will help normalize the game among players who know the game and know each other's strengths and weaknesses. That's good. But for entering into new games with unknown players, it would be useful to know how the game is balanced and how to bid accordingly. Maybe provide some helpful suggestions in the game's Designer's Notes or strategy tips?


Even before bidding, the game is setup to give every country a chance of winning. Like, before bidding, France VP total to win is 400, while everyone else's is lower depending on how powerful the country is. I believe, right off hand, that Turkey has the lowest VP total to win, so they only need to maintain around a 6-8 VP per eco phase, where France needs around a 10-12 per eco phase to win.




Pippin -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 1:36:15 AM)

quote:

so if you find that a playerd bidded 100 VP for playing FR, you should quit this player from the game and look for another one.


I am not so sure. If someone wants to bid the whole bank for a country, then LET HIM! Even if he kicks everyone's ass, if he can't pay off his debts so to speak, then he simply doensn't win. Next guy in line wins. Sounds fair to me. He will learn soon enough.




ian77 -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 1:37:35 AM)

[:D] I have been watching this forum for nearly three years (I think) and cant believe how excited I am that EIA is soooooo close. My poor over used, curling at the edges, cardboard counters may soon be able to take a lengthy and well earned period of R&R. But they will still have to do battle every so often for old times sake, that and the fact that drinking beer with old friends over the games table is slightly more socially acceptable in the wifes eyes than drinking alone in front of the screen!![;)]




Marshall Ellis -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 2:02:38 AM)

Hello all:

I like the bidding because, I find that everybody has their favorite nation to play (Can anyone guess Pippin's ? :-) ) and so this creates an eagerness to bid high for their favorite nation BUT you don't want to go so high that it impacts your chances of winning. You bid a hundred VP for France and you'll probably get to play France BUT you probably won't win even if you win all of your wars. Bid too low and you'll end up with Spain, Turkey or Austria (Which I tend to like playing anyway) which many would say puts you at a disadvantage!

Quite a pickle that bidding can create!

Thank you




ian77 -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 2:45:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Hello all:

I like the bidding because, I find that everybody has their favorite nation to play (Can anyone guess Pippin's ? :-) ) and so this creates an eagerness to bid high for their favorite nation BUT you don't want to go so high that it impacts your chances of winning. You bid a hundred VP for France and you'll probably get to play France BUT you probably won't win even if you win all of your wars. Bid too low and you'll end up with Spain, Turkey or Austria (Which I tend to like playing anyway) which many would say puts you at a disadvantage!

Quite a pickle that bidding can create!

Thank you



You are spot on Marshall, bidding is a game in its self, especially if you play with regular opponents. You try to second and third guess each other, bluff that you are going all out to play as Bobs favourite GB, and try and sneak France for yourself with a low bid. We have tried many different systems, one of the craziest being a straight forward blind draw for powers, followed by negotiation and the sale/transfer of powers between players, Spain and Russia were swapped with the first 75 Russian VPs being ceeded to Spain. This meant that it would be that much easier for Spain to win so France and GB both had to constantly score points off Spain! Meanwhile the Russian had to play a very aggressive game himself in order to score, but was still not considered a major threat, it was a cardboard bloodbath with Prussia and Austria the big losers, again! God I love this game!

Ian




ian77 -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 2:51:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pippin

quote:

so if you find that a playerd bidded 100 VP for playing FR, you should quit this player from the game and look for another one.


I am not so sure. If someone wants to bid the whole bank for a country, then LET HIM! Even if he kicks everyone's ass, if he can't pay off his debts so to speak, then he simply doensn't win. Next guy in line wins. Sounds fair to me. He will learn soon enough.


In our face to face the guy in last place, with the lowest % VPs, has to pay for the all the beer..... and 7 of us can get through a lot in 15 hours!!




eg0master -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 2:45:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ian77

[...]

In our face to face the guy in last place, with the lowest % VPs, has to pay for the all the beer..... and 7 of us can get through a lot in 15 hours!!


HAHAHAHA, I think we will be using that to eliminate any insane bids... [:D]




ardilla -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 4:52:00 PM)

The point, under my player opinion, about letting bid 100 or more points for a country is that I think the game will be unbalanced.

Why?

Because, if we have a player that bids 100 for FR this is 500/44 turns this means an average of almost 12 VP per economic turn, since this is almost imposible the FR player will know that HE WILL NOT WIN, so I think he will just "break" the game and do whatever he feels like, and having a player who can not win is something STUPID.
Because at the end this is a game, and if you play is because you want to win.

And of course we have GB, with the special rules of winning if nobody wins and taking away VP from other countries.

So, there still be possible for a player to bid 200 VP over GB and win the game using wisely the both above rules!!!!

That is why I thought that it could be nice to have a maximum bidding for country.
So, if 2 players are crazy about playing FR, they will probably bid the highest....so the losser of the random dice will play an unliked country...it is a high risk!!!




Madcombinepilot -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 9:20:20 PM)

This is awesome!!!

Looks great, can't wait to play it!




Pippin -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/21/2004 10:57:14 PM)

quote:

Another problem is the ability of GB to win the game if nobody reaches the total VP needed. This can make a player bid very high for GB and then, with the other ability of GR of substract own VP from another country at war with, will make possible to GB winning even with a bid of 300 VP!!!!


I have thought about this ages ago, but in the end decided it is not too much a problem. Lets look at it this way, Britain has 2 ways to win. Get her quota, or hope everyone else ends up in a draw. Now, lets assume she bids infinit on herfself. Great, now she has effectively cut her winning strategies down by half. There is only one way now, hoping everyone results in a draw.

What has changed from before, till now? Some could argue it is almost a disadvantage to her now. And lets not forget, if she goes around trying to subtract victory points from everyone else, they are going to get very, very mad. Having a lot of mad players at you is not safe for your country, to say the least. In no time, you won't even have a half point to your name, so how can you subtract from others? Not to mention having your status slide wayyyy low is not a good tactic for your country's health.

In any case, if Britain wants to do this tactic, let her. She has always been able to do so, what is the difference now(except one less winning path)? Seems more of a disadvantage.

Oh, and BTW, once Britain falls, she is out of the game for good.... so you can see what may happen here... :P




ian77 -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/22/2004 12:06:01 AM)

I have thought about this ages ago, but in the end decided it is not too much a problem.

[/quote]
Thats a pretty good summary of the position with regard to an over inflated bid for GB Pippin IMHO.

The "draw means GB victory" just adds yet another layer to this game and its off map diplomacy. I've said it before but it is still true, GOD I LOVE THIS GAME!![:D]




yammahoper -> RE: OK, I've added a bid field! (7/22/2004 1:59:33 AM)

Aftre our first few times playing EiA, we gave up on bidding and eiher drew from a hat or bid on each nation using 0ne through seven. People who bid the same roled for resolution.

Bidding does not need to be used at all. It certainly is not intended to be an intricate part of the game, though if people bid high, it would become so. I have never seen a bid over 40, which was for Russia, and Russia both won that game and became the first non dominant power to achieve dominace (our dreaded Russian/French alliance game, won by the man who introduced us to the game of Eia, and always a brilliant player). The way the required victory point totals vary from nation to nation (330 for Aus, 400 for Fra, 370 for GB, 320 for Pru, 325 for Sp, 335 for Ru and 315 for Tu) means diferent levels of aggression and terms of peace can be handled. France needs to stay at war almost continually to win (there are 40 eco phases in the game over the 10 years, and VP's are only awarded then, so Fr needs 10 each phase to simply stay in the running...for those who have not played the game, the Political Status table is self adjusting. The higher you are up the table via winning battles and wars then the further you fall during the adjustment phase, and will continue to fall untill in the nuetral zone, where 7 VP an eco phase is the rule).

Quick math will show what a nation needs to average to win in ten years, though I have never seen a game last the full 120 months before someone won. When to declare war, when to win battles, when to gain the political points for conquering Minor Nations, when to gain a few points with an alliance...all relate to political staus and the earning of VP. Go on a hot run of 15 to 13 VP a phase for four to seven phases and you take a nice lead, and even TURKEY can do this. In fact, Turkeys lead becomes even larger because of the reduced points needed to win. The answer if this occurs? Have Austria of GB beat up Turkey! Anyway, I have seen every nation except Spain and Prussia win (Spain was usually an UMP in our table top games).

BTW, all these VP totals to win assume you are using the ability to manipulate your economy for more money and manpower, which results in a negative adjustment on the Political Status Table (but gives extra money and manpower for building stuff as you super heat your economy), or slow your economy and loose money and man power, which results in a positive adjustment on the Political Status Table (as you spend more money on your nations infrastructure and less on the war machine). With this rule, nations like Turkey, Spain, Prussia, Russia and Austria can battle their way into the Dominant Zone on the Political Status table, gaining 9 VP an eco phase minimum, and STAY there without fighting at all, just manipulating there economy. The nations on the fringe of the map, like Turkey, Spain and RUssia, can use this tactic most effectively, fighting a few minor nations, conquering them, then sitting back, negative manipulate thier economys, and build their armies. Sooner or later, France or GB will HAVE to come for them, typically by (if France) bum rushing them, or (if GB) paying an ally to to it for you.

yamma




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