Simple fix for PT boat exploit (Full Version)

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mavraam -> Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 8:45:29 PM)

Don't allow PT boats to fire when out of fuel.

This would allow them to still be used close to shore and get from port to port. But it would eliminate the exploit of sending bands of them out into the deep blue sea looking for transports and taking advantage of the fact that they can always move one hex even when out of fuel.

As it is, you could actually make say 50 TF's with 3 PT boats in each and spread them accross a huge area of the ocean. It would be very difficult for enemy ships to get through without taking at least some damage. (Note, even with this rule in place, they could still be used as very cheap deep ocean expendable lookouts which is another exploit).

I only use them in port against the AI because I think using the in other ways with the rules as they are is an exploit.

Just a thought...



rogueusmc -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 8:51:28 PM)

I could live with that.

Personally, I use them in small SC TFs....usually 4 PTs, 2 DDs, and I throw in some SCs and PGs for training with the DDs...The smaller ships gain ASW experience better when they are with higher trained ships like DDs. The PTs piggyback on the DDs fuel supplies.



kaleun -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 8:55:04 PM)

quote:

Personally, I use them in small SC TFs....usually 4 PTs, 2 DDs, and I throw in some SCs and PGs for training with the DDs...The smaller ships gain ASW experience better when they are with higher trained ships like DDs. The PTs piggyback on the DDs fuel supplies.


My experience in e-mail is that the PT boats are noy that effective, unless used in huge numbers, which would be gamey.
They have dissuaded three times lightly escorted transport TFs from landing, but dis not actually hit anything; by then they ran out of fuel, and had to be withdrawn.

No need to fix the PT boats IMHO, just a house rule, not to make PT boat TFs greater than say 15.



mavraam -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 8:57:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

I could live with that.

Personally, I use them in small SC TFs....usually 4 PTs, 2 DDs, and I throw in some SCs and PGs for training with the DDs...The smaller ships gain ASW experience better when they are with higher trained ships like DDs. The PTs piggyback on the DDs fuel supplies.


I like that! I think I'll steal, er, uh I mean borrow that idea. [:D]

And it makes a lot more sense for that type of TF to be able to operate out at sea with the support of larger ships. Plus a task force like that that stumbles accross a poorly guarded transport TF that the ai is so prone to use could cause some serious havoc.



mavraam -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 8:58:59 PM)

quote:

then they ran out of fuel, and had to be withdrawn.


That's the problem though isn't it? They don't have to be withdrawn. They can keep pokin along at 1 hex at a time acting as spotters and as a deterent to transports.

I have no problem with using house rules but the need for house rules suggests a problem with the rules. IMHO.



kaleun -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:01:00 PM)

Well they are making a detour around Borneo at 1 hex a day. I am sure they will get creamed by the IJN. They have no torpedoes anyway IIRC. That is the 1 hex a day rule.
Perhaps the 1 hex a day rule is what need sto be fixed.



Damien Thorn -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:09:08 PM)

Just make them so they can't go into deep water hexes. PT boats shouldn't be operating more than 60 miles from land anyway.



Nikademus -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:09:19 PM)

a good house rule would be port defense only and no more than 10 PT's per TF (maybe a max limit too)



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:17:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Well they are making a detour around Borneo at 1 hex a day. I am sure they will get creamed by the IJN. They have no torpedoes anyway IIRC. That is the 1 hex a day rule.
Perhaps the 1 hex a day rule is what need sto be fixed.


The 1 hex a day rule was an abstraction to deal with towing disabled ships, IIRC. Perhaps the 1 hex a day rule should be disabled when the vessel has zero fuel. Or make it one hex a day in a random direction (drifitng) when not in a coastal hex. [;)]

PT boats as one way surface raiders in distant open sea hexes or suicide pickets floating with the tides is gamey for sure.

BTW..extending submarine patrols in emergencies and burning up all fuel, then relying on 1 hex per day to get back is gamey too. Ditto on using barges with no fuel.



kaleun -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:31:54 PM)

quote:

Just make them so they can't go into deep water hexes. PT boats shouldn't be operating more than 60 miles from land anyway


Hey I needed to get my PT boats from Pearl to Midway. I stuck them in a transport TF so they could refuel on the way.

Also used a TK loaded with fuel to retrieve some PTs stuck at an out of fuel base; refueled them from the TK, then they all set out into the deep blue sea. (If they don't get caught they should make it)[8|]



Moquia -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:32:17 PM)

Maybe PT boats should be simulated by a LCU instead. Like a movable coast defence unit. And if you had to many in one base they could be given a penalty, like an oversized TF. They would also be vulnerable to airplanes on port attack.



tsimmonds -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:34:08 PM)

quote:

Personally, I use them in small SC TFs....usually 4 PTs, 2 DDs, and I throw in some SCs and PGs for training with the DDs...The smaller ships gain ASW experience better when they are with higher trained ships like DDs. The PTs piggyback on the DDs fuel supplies.

This is pretty gamey too. Refueling PTs at sea from DDs, when DDs burn black oil and PTs use AvGas? PTs should be able to refuel from a PT tender in a port, period.



freeboy -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:47:18 PM)

quote:

a good house rule would be port defense only and no more than 10 PT's per TF (maybe a max limit too)


ditto.. ho rules for now.. maybe a patch later showing damage to sys and float /turn in deep water



MengCiao -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:48:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

Don't allow PT boats to fire when out of fuel.

This would allow them to still be used close to shore and get from port to port. But it would eliminate the exploit of sending bands of them out into the deep blue sea looking for transports and taking advantage of the fact that they can always move one hex even when out of fuel.

As it is, you could actually make say 50 TF's with 3 PT boats in each and spread them accross a huge area of the ocean. It would be very difficult for enemy ships to get through without taking at least some damage. (Note, even with this rule in place, they could still be used as very cheap deep ocean expendable lookouts which is another exploit).

I only use them in port against the AI because I think using the in other ways with the rules as they are is an exploit.

Just a thought...


This eternal PT exploit is being used against me (in a very restrained fashion) and I don't have any problem with it except that PT boats that are out of fuel on the high seas should not be able to attack with torpedos. I don't care if they rig a mast and keel and make 5 kts toward home, but doing anything more is pretty extreme.

Their chances of radio-ing in a sighting report should be pretty low too and their gun attacks should be reduced as well.

They should also be pretty vulnerable to any kind of attack (except torpedos or depth charges) in that wallowing, jury-rigged state.

Of course they can still run down and sink barges as long as their ammo holds out.



kaleun -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:49:32 PM)

quote:

ditto.. ho rules for now.. maybe a patch later showing damage to sys and float /turn in deep water


That would be a good one, it also would allow the PT boats to be trasnported accross deep water, take some damage, and then be repaired at their destination. Makes sense.



Tenzan -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:51:18 PM)

Gamey is as gamey does:

No house rules required-Fix them from starting combat at a range of 5000m in open water..That's where the problem is-They're guaranteed to be overeffective because the torpedoes won't miss at that range-And just how they'd get that close defies explanation.

I dunno..it strikes me as sort of silly to invent a house rule do deal with something the game's combat resolution should deal with.



freeboy -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:51:36 PM)

still want to wait for the patch? we don't need no stinkin pt boats.. uh wait a minuit aren't I the allies next game?[:-][:D]



kaleun -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:53:35 PM)

Patch is supposedly coming out this week.
Get ready after that!



tsimmonds -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 9:57:12 PM)

quote:

This eternal PT exploit is being used against me (in a very restrained fashion) and I don't have any problem with it except that PT boats that are out of fuel on the high seas should not be able to attack with torpedos. I don't care if they rig a mast and keel and make 5 kts toward home, but doing anything more is pretty extreme.

Their chances of radio-ing in a sighting report should be pretty low too and their gun attacks should be reduced as well.

They should also be pretty vulnerable to any kind of attack (except torpedos or depth charges) in that wallowing, jury-rigged state.

Of course they can still run down and sink barges as long as their ammo holds out.

Any boat at sea with no fuel is at the mercy of the wind and the waves and should have a significant probability of sinking during the course of a day. If you can't steam you can't steer; if you can't steer you will go broadside on before too long; once you are broadside on you will eventually founder, capsize, or be pounded to bits by the sea.



Nikademus -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 10:00:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tenzan

Gamey is as gamey does:

No house rules required-Fix them from starting combat at a range of 5000m in open water..That's where the problem is-They're guaranteed to be overeffective because the torpedoes won't miss at that range-And just how they'd get that close defies explanation.

I dunno..it strikes me as sort of silly to invent a house rule do deal with something the game's combat resolution should deal with.


well the engine cant be blamed if the player "builds" incredible #'s of them and stuffs them into hexes. Thats where things get a little bit Twilight Zone IMO. When i start seeing massive #'s of PT's all over the place i ask two questions.......where did they all come from (you cant build em out of native wood and strap a engine on em) and where did all the torpedoes come from.

For me a "house rule" would mainly govern that (and doesn't involve the engine).



Tenzan -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 10:31:00 PM)

quote:

well the engine cant be blamed if the player "builds" incredible #'s of them and stuffs them into hexes. Thats where things get a little bit Twilight Zone IMO. When i start seeing massive #'s of PT's all over the place i ask two questions.......where did they all come from (you cant build em out of native wood and strap a engine on em) and where did all the torpedoes come from.



Yes-I understand that but-what I'm getting at is: If PT boats weren't overeffective, no-one'd bother creating giant task forces of them (unless they just liked seeing a surface combat force simulating a target tug practice)hence-gamey is as gamey does-PT boats get used in gamey ways because the combat resolution computation gives them a huge advantage..It rewards you to use them in gamey ways. remove the reward-remove the gamey tactic...I've never seen anyone use a 'gamey' tactic that didn't reward the player using it...


But-Maybe looking at PT boat creation limits is a good way to look at the problem, as well?

The way things stand right now, they're pretty unsettling-the funny thing is-why is everyone worried about them in the high seas? They're much, much more deadly in costal hexes! They start at 2000m in a costal hex, and recieve the help of CD Guns!
That's the 'gamiest' thing I could think of doing with them..Creating a bunch of TF's and putting them in all the important base hexes...They'd kill ANY invasion force, and deadlock the game.



mavraam -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 10:45:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

Just make them so they can't go into deep water hexes. PT boats shouldn't be operating more than 60 miles from land anyway.


That idea occured to me as an alternative but then I thought you should be able to move them from port to port. Maybe they could be crated up like airplanes?

This idea has the advantage of eliminating the use of PT boats as deep water spotters which my no fuel/no shot idea doesn't cover.



Nikademus -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 10:59:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tenzan

Yes-I understand that but-what I'm getting at is: If PT boats weren't overeffective, no-one'd bother creating giant task forces of them (unless they just liked seeing a surface combat force simulating a target tug practice)hence-gamey is as gamey does-PT boats get used in gamey ways because the combat resolution computation gives them a huge advantage..It rewards you to use them in gamey ways. remove the reward-remove the gamey tactic...I've never seen anyone use a 'gamey' tactic that didn't reward the player using it...



well if you have '200' of them as one player described...then they dont have to be overeffective. Sooner or later the law of averages is going to hit home, and a PT only costs 1 VP.

quote:


..Creating a bunch of TF's and putting them in all the important base hexes...They'd kill ANY invasion force, and deadlock the game.


yep. [:)]



Damien Thorn -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 11:02:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

Just make them so they can't go into deep water hexes. PT boats shouldn't be operating more than 60 miles from land anyway.


That idea occured to me as an alternative but then I thought you should be able to move them from port to port. Maybe they could be crated up like airplanes?

This idea has the advantage of eliminating the use of PT boats as deep water spotters which my no fuel/no shot idea doesn't cover.


Yes, add in your idea of crating them like airplanes and limit them to coastal hexes and I think we have a pretty good solution and people will be using PT boats like they were historically used.

Either that or go the Civ route: any PT boat in deep water has a 50% chance of being lost.



Tenzan -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 11:05:43 PM)

quote:

well if you have '200' of them as one player described...then they dont have to be overeffective. Sooner or later the law of averages is going to hit home, and a PT only costs 1 VP.


True, very true....I see a big need to fix that-..There's nothing stopping anyone from filling the map with them, at that rate-And that's bad!

I still think that they need to have their attacking range cut-and the effectiveness loss will take the wind out of that sail, by and large,but..sounds like PT boats are becoming to WITP what the G4M's were to UV :)



vonSchnitter -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 11:21:10 PM)

Well Gents,

I am certainly not in the know - but there are two sides to the same coin.

A side: Ships out of fuel move a hex at the time - or something like that. That was kind of o.k. with UV taking the smaller hexes into account.
B side: the AI and the amount of changes in code it may take to change the "no fuel no move/combat" behaviour.

Why not reduce the movement of "out of fuel" units to say 1/4 of a hex per turn ? or less. Should make the whole issue very much less attractive ?

That should stop any sort ot "exploits" PT or not - and stresses the requirement for proper logistics ?
Just my 2c.

Cheers
vonSchnitter



MadDawg -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 11:44:04 PM)

I just posted this in another thread, but it probably is better off here [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

Don't allow PT boats to fire when out of fuel.




This is a good start, but I think that it only solves part of the problem though as they can be used in task forces with larger ships from which they can refuel. Maybe if they couldnt refuel this way also? Then people have a problem transporting them though.

In reality a PT task force attacking a group of enemy warships would have to be very lucky to get a hit in (as they didnt have much luck at this during the war), but at the moment it seems quite easy. I think that this points to something being a little off in the combat engine with regards to PT boats. Maybe at the moment they are too hard to hit or are too accurate with their torps, maybe some sort of morale check is in order like pilots have?.

Also, I think that the auto creation of PT task forces when a base is attack is part of the problem...if you have 100 PT boats here they are all able to put to sea. Ive been thinking that maybe this should be limited by port size, something like 5 x (port size) = amount of PT boats that can be launched at any one time. Ive had a task force of 15 ships, including 4 BB's sunk by PT's and something just doesnt feel right about that.

Dawg



UncleBuck -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 11:49:55 PM)

I can understand that 100's of PT's sortieing out at once is off, but you enter restricted waters with a Blue water Navy and you takes your chances.

UB



MadDawg -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/20/2004 11:58:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

I can understand that 100's of PT's sortieing out at once is off, but you enter restricted waters with a Blue water Navy and you takes your chances.

UB


Hehe, that would be a fair enough comment except in the example I was using it was an atoll, 100's of miles from any other land mass.

Seriously though, if PT's were this effective why didnt they have 100's at Guadacanal to stop the Japanese bombardments? For that matter, if they were this effective, why bother building battleships, why not just send fleets of these around with a tanker [:)].

Dawg



mavraam -> RE: Simple fix for PT boat exploit (7/21/2004 12:06:54 AM)

quote:

Seriously though, if PT's were this effective why didnt they have 100's at Guadacanal to stop the Japanese bombardments? For that matter, if they were this effective, why bother building battleships, why not just send fleets of these around with a tanker


And why bother with subs? Send mini fleets of these around and take out tranny's. They seem very effective in that role.



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