Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (Full Version)

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mavraam -> Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/22/2004 6:57:05 PM)

I'm playing as the Allies against the AI.

I'm thinking about an early invasion of the Marshall Islands from PH. By early I mean 1st to 2nd quarter 1942.

The idea is this:

1) The main island can support (eventually) a spoilage free base.
2) By cutting off Gilbert instead of invading it first, the Japs will either have to run the guantlet to supply it or it will die on the vine and can be picked off easily later.
3) Control of these islands will effectively connect Pearl and Australia allowing the free flow of supplies back and forth.
4) If Japan decides to put up a major fight, it will distract carriers and other resources from more valuable areas. I'm willing to lose the battle if it means weakening Japan elsewhere.
5) It provides the possibility of a 'Southern Midway'.

Cons:

1) The Japs are still much stronger and more experienced than me at this point.
2) It has the possibility of being a 'reverse Midway' [:@]

Am I way off base (pun intended [:'(]) or is there some merit to this plan?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm a complete newbie in regards to the Pacific Theater so forgive me if this is obviously stupid.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/22/2004 7:13:30 PM)

Against the AI it will almost definitely work since it has no brain. In fact why stop at the Marshalls you could probably walk right into the Home Islands or at least the Kuriles ...

Sorry, I don't have much time for the AI even though I have been playing it to learn the game.

Against a human I definitely would not consider it. They will almost certainly have (or can transfer) 50-100 Betties/Nells in the Kwajalein area which can make a mess out of anything naval and Allied at this stage of the war. Wait till you have the means to do the job properly.



52nd Lowland -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/22/2004 7:18:39 PM)

Yep the Jap player should be able to see any invasion attempt and easily transfer air assets into the area to combat this..that is the PBEM player.God knows what the AI would do..



Captain Cruft -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/22/2004 7:21:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 52nd Lowland
Yep the Jap player should be able to see any invasion attempt and easily transfer air assets into the area to combat this..that is the PBEM player.God knows what the AI would do..


I just love the way you can send Nells and Betties virtually across the whole map in one go ... [:D] The fact that they can then undertake a mission on the same day is IMHO incorrect but then personally I would never do this so they can recover fatigue.



Drongo -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/22/2004 7:46:10 PM)

I think you guys are killing his AI excitement a bit.

Mavraam,

All your reasons to go there are sound.

Probably the correct thing to do against a human opponent in the situation you described would be to retake the Gilberts first as a staging/support base and then push on from there into the Marshalls under land based air cover.

Against the AI, you can get away with taking a staging base within the Marshalls themselves. However, just make sure you go for one that's lightly defended as the Marshalls are all atolls and atoll invasions can be disasters if the enemy holds them in strength. To establish whether it is lightly defended, recon it from the air first (or even try a sub landing party).

Once you get a foot hold, immediately bring in the airbase and engineer units (they should be sitting in a reserve TF off shore) and get your land based air in as quick as.

Against the AI, you probably only have to deal with about 2 Betty units + some Zero escort when you first come in. Survive that and you should have enough time to get established before the IJN CVs turn up (if they do at all).

Once things quiten down, you can start using your airpower (+ naval bombardments) to prepare the way for further expansion in the Marshalls.

It all should be do-able. The main thing to remember is that you are a long way from home if something goes wrong. [;)]

Good Luck.



mavraam -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/22/2004 8:50:30 PM)

Thanks guys for all the advice.

Sounds like this is kind of taking advantage of the AI. But on the other hand that will be the case no matter where I attack so its kind of a non-issue in my mind.

I didn't really think about the Japs moving a massive load of air assets there for defense, I was thinking they would use carriers which would pull them out of the main action for a while.

It should have occured to me, that's how I defended Port Moseby in the Coral Sea scenario, moving everything with wings and bombs to that base and drawing the Jap fleet into striking range.

But WTH, since this is just a learning game anyway, I'm going to give it a go and see what happens.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/22/2004 9:16:11 PM)

Just beware of the AI, it is dumb as all AI are but the UV AI has the bad habit to send every CV it has when its territory was invaded.



mavraam -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/23/2004 6:32:06 PM)

quote:

or even try a sub landing party).


I assume I do this by loading a sub with some LCU which will load only a fraction of it and sending it to unload on that island?

If I do this, aren't I dooming these soldiers to certain death? Or is it possible I can save some of them by loading them back in the sub and getting the hell out of there?

And also, if the island is completely unguarded, could this small band of brothers actually capture it? If so, this seems like a pretty cheesy way to take back some of the obscure islands.



Drongo -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/23/2004 7:09:42 PM)

It all depends on whether you want to practice for an "anything goes" game against a human player or just have fun against the AI.

Sub landings to occupy islands may be considered "gamey" by some and good tactics by others. Its entirely up to you how you want to play.

As to how they work,

create a sub transport TF (complete with sub)
order it to load a unit you dislike
sail it to one of the islands
unload the troops
if shooting occurs, the island is occupied
if the sub sinks, the island probably has a CD battery and/or a minefield
if shooting does not occur, the island is probably empty and may be captured.

If the island is an occupied atoll, your handfull of men will normally be anihilated on the turn they land. Under other circumstances, they will probably just be bombarded and if they survive, you can try to withdraw them prior to any further combat.

One major reason why some naughty players may use this tactic is because the land combat screen comes up when your tiny little force is bombarded by the defenders on the turn they land. This screen shows what units you are up against and how strong they are. Quite useful for planning later invasions. Effectively, it is a recon by fire.

Use it and suffer eternal damnation!!!



mavraam -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/23/2004 7:36:19 PM)

quote:

order it to load a unit you dislike


LMAO.

But I like all my troops equally!

I'm not sure if this tactic is completely gamey. After all, If someone left a base completely unguarded, it would be reasonable for a small group of soldiers to 'capture' it. Perhaps there should be a rule that in order for a base to be controlled it has to be occupied. A small engineer unit could be divided into 3 mini groups and used to occupy 3 bases. Of course supply would be a PITA!



mongo -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/24/2004 9:56:17 PM)

quote:

A small engineer unit could be divided into 3 mini groups and used to occupy 3 bases


Can you take a base w/Engineers? I thought they had no combat power. Or are there some with?

I was thinking about that the other day looking at SeaBee TOEs. They should have at least a little combat power (as should all combat engineer units).



Sneer -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/27/2004 4:25:05 PM)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just beware of the AI, it is dumb as all AI are but the UV AI has the bad habit to send every CV it has when its territory was invaded.



no problem AI do not react to invasions
I took Gilbert ISl in May/42 and Nauru in 8/42
no response
Ai bombards Lae only



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/27/2004 4:58:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mongo

quote:

A small engineer unit could be divided into 3 mini groups and used to occupy 3 bases


Can you take a base w/Engineers? I thought they had no combat power. Or are there some with?

I was thinking about that the other day looking at SeaBee TOEs. They should have at least a little combat power (as should all combat engineer units).


Seabees were not combat units, but civilian workmen enlisted in their own construction speciality.



RolandRahn_MatrixForum -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/27/2004 6:47:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Just beware of the AI, it is dumb as all AI are but the UV AI has the bad habit to send every CV it has when its territory was invaded.


Hmm...
November 42 against historical AI.
I have Wake, Marcus, Bonin and Iwo Jima.
KB didn't show up.
I send a BB force to bomb Tokyo.
Nothing happened.
I got Megalomaniac and send a BB force to Osaka/Kobe - 4 BBs lost by land based dive bombers.
I think I will start another game once the patch is out with AI 'Hard'.

Roland



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/27/2004 6:56:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

I'm playing as the Allies against the AI.

I'm thinking about an early invasion of the Marshall Islands from PH. By early I mean 1st to 2nd quarter 1942.

The idea is this:

1) The main island can support (eventually) a spoilage free base.
2) By cutting off Gilbert instead of invading it first, the Japs will either have to run the guantlet to supply it or it will die on the vine and can be picked off easily later.
3) Control of these islands will effectively connect Pearl and Australia allowing the free flow of supplies back and forth.
4) If Japan decides to put up a major fight, it will distract carriers and other resources from more valuable areas. I'm willing to lose the battle if it means weakening Japan elsewhere.
5) It provides the possibility of a 'Southern Midway'.

Cons:

1) The Japs are still much stronger and more experienced than me at this point.
2) It has the possibility of being a 'reverse Midway' [:@]

Am I way off base (pun intended [:'(]) or is there some merit to this plan?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm a complete newbie in regards to the Pacific Theater so forgive me if this is obviously stupid.


I'd be interested to see how the AI would react to this move? Same thing as how I would be interested to see how the AI would react to an early taking of Johnston Is or Christmas Is as the Japanese player?

My gut intuition is the AI will not do much of anything beyond providing token resistance with whatever is currently on hand, to any "out-of-the-box" human action. And an early 1942 invasion of the Marshalls is definitely "out-of-the-box". As with any "out-of-the-box" human thing vs the AI, you are inviting AI breakage.



Sneer -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/28/2004 10:38:18 AM)

Ai carries out its plans and do not react to anything. i think that against AI I'll have Marshall's Isl except Kwajalein till the end of 42. With strong base at Eniwotek I don't need to take this stronghold (japs have over 40k of troops and multiple CDs so let's them starve)

I don't really care about BB losses ( lost 4 at PH and 1 later) because you have many of them and number increases fast. Loss of Fuso and Yamato to Japan is much more harmful in my game.

I think about playing Japan ..... to find challenge for a while as I can't imagine playing WITP PBEM campaign



The Dude -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (7/28/2004 11:35:58 AM)

I am playing the grand campaign as the allies and i invaded maloelap about feb-Mar 42 as my 1st offensive move. I used the 24 and 25th Inf Divs and took the base. I parked 3 P40 grps and a bunch of B25 and A20s there. Once Kwajalien was pounded into dust. Any Japs that came in range were easy pickings. Now its Oct 43 and the Marshalls, Gilberts and the carolines up to truk are just big POW camps. The way I see it, once you have one island the Japs dont stand a chance. Of course once i play as the Japanese I WILL smite the allies!



Top Cat -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/2/2004 12:15:42 PM)

Hmm the AI does appear to be stymied by any ahistorical moves.

I simply parked a cruiser at Tarawa for a couple of months early in the game and the Japanese never invaded. By May 42 I've built up Tarawa into a nice B17 base and have made several landings in the Marshall islands.

The AI has not retaliated yet. Seems to be fixated on Rangoon where he's had is head handed to him on a plate.

By mid May 42 the AI has also :
- not landed in New Guinea
- not landed in Guadalcanal (or anywhere near it)
- not finished conquering Java (and numerous other bits)
- not landed near Tarakan (missing out on oil here!)
- not attempted to neutralise the Dutch Air Force which has wreaked havoc with AI AK/AP's
- had 5 Divisions + 13 misc. units clobbered at Rangoon where the AI got itself surrounded
- lost approx. 400+ planes in 3 months on the ground at Tavoy
- never flew a single plane as CAP at Tavoy!

Anyway you get the picture. At current rate I expect the Brits will be in Singapore by late 42. B17's there will cause grief to AI oil production and it's all down hill from there. Throw in what I can do with the Yanks and Aussies and the picture is very lop sided.

Hoping the AI can be tweaked a bit in a future patch or as some people have already requested the Allied reinforcements arrive later or are politically pinned to rear areas.


Cheers
Top Cat



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/2/2004 5:56:47 PM)

Top Cat what difficulty are you playing at? The default level for any type of challenge is mentioned by the beta testers as the Hard difficulty level.



DrewMatrix -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/2/2004 6:51:53 PM)

With Scen 15/Version 1.10/AI = Hard I managed to do an invasion of Maleotip by early Feb '42 (but I have now restarted v1.21 Scen 16 so I can't look it up).

The keys were
1) to do a fast anti airfield strike on Kwajalein, 2 TFs of 2 CVs each. (I tend to have a lot of CAP, 70%, but all the VS/VB/TB on anti airfield
2) immediately follow with a bombardment (I had 3 BBs and 3 CAs IIRC.

That made such a wreck of Kwajalein I could keep it suppressed from then on with some combination of CV air and bombardment.

Then I invaded Maleotop (Airfield 3 as I recall, much easier to take than Kwajalein).

_If_ you can get that first devastating hit against the Kwajalein Airfield this should work vs a human too.

Addendum:
I forgot to mention (big omission). I did not attempt any aggressive CV moves in the Central Pacific _until_ I spotted the Japanses CVs in strength in the Dutch East Indies.



Drongo -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/2/2004 8:14:17 PM)

Its interesting that with certain public enthusiasm for modded scenarios and seeming lack of enthusiasm for the AI's state of play, no one seems yet to have started on modding a scenario tailored for an AI opponent.

During the beta, I modded a '42-45 big scenario that minimised (as much as possible) the need for the Japanese AI player to make a lot of the moves and decisions that could be exploited by a human opponent.

Effectively, I used my understanding of how the AI played to set it up in an already established defensive position from the Pacific through to SE Asia and then some changes were made to the supply situation. No extra a/c, pilot exp improvements, etc were used but it managed to give quite a good account of itself.

Hopefully some player may have at go at modding one after the next patch.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/2/2004 8:41:01 PM)

quote:

Effectively, I used my understanding of how the AI played to set it up in an already established defensive position


Maybe we can start a thread in the scenario editor section forum to discuss your knowledge of how the AI played. I really would like to know more about this.



Sneer -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/3/2004 12:17:31 PM)

Yes unfortunately
That's why I started playing as Japan looking for challenge.
By 9/42 I took Golbert Isl and build strong bases on each. hold Amboina.
Heavily guarded Lae/PM/Lunga/Buna/Dobadura/ by 5+ Divs- no chance for any aggressive movements/ 500+ bombers

In Burma I took Bangkok / Japan forces are in pices/ Indochina & Malaya invasions in progress and I doubt Japan has spare INF units to help this theater.
Yamato& Fuso sunk in Japan silly attack / KB not seen from ages. No reaction for any invasion which was out of historical timetable.

On the other hand Allies Ai is not much better as I should achieve Decisive Victory somewhere in early 2/42 [8D]



Top Cat -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/4/2004 9:46:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

Hmm the AI does appear to be stymied by any ahistorical moves.

I simply parked a cruiser at Tarawa for a couple of months early in the game and the Japanese never invaded. By May 42 I've built up Tarawa into a nice B17 base and have made several landings in the Marshall islands.

The AI has not retaliated yet. Seems to be fixated on Rangoon where he's had is head handed to him on a plate.

By mid May 42 the AI has also :
- not landed in New Guinea
- not landed in Guadalcanal (or anywhere near it)
- not finished conquering Java (and numerous other bits)
- not landed near Tarakan (missing out on oil here!)
- not attempted to neutralise the Dutch Air Force which has wreaked havoc with AI AK/AP's
- had 5 Divisions + 13 misc. units clobbered at Rangoon where the AI got itself surrounded
- lost approx. 400+ planes in 3 months on the ground at Tavoy
- never flew a single plane as CAP at Tavoy!

Anyway you get the picture. At current rate I expect the Brits will be in Singapore by late 42. B17's there will cause grief to AI oil production and it's all down hill from there. Throw in what I can do with the Yanks and Aussies and the picture is very lop sided.

Hoping the AI can be tweaked a bit in a future patch or as some people have already requested the Allied reinforcements arrive later or are politically pinned to rear areas.


Cheers
Top Cat


Only playing at historical level. Thought I'd learn the ropes first. Should have started with difficuly methinks....

My Japanese AI opponent has completely collapsed in Burma. I'll take Tavoy in the next 48 hours and I'm still in May 42. Not much between me and Singapore from what I can see and I've got 4 more divisions enroute.

I know AI is a very difficult area to program but I was hoping for at least some kind of cohesion from the AI.

Cheers
Top Cat



mongo -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/5/2004 1:21:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

I don't really care about BB losses ( lost 4 at PH and 1 later) because you have many of them and number increases fast. Loss of Fuso and Yamato to Japan is much more harmful in my game.


I'd personally worry (and do) about Allied BB losses. As effective as CD guns are in this game, they will be invaluable later on. Cruisers and especially destroyers just can't hold up to that kind of punishment, much less put forth the damage to the enemy that BBs can.

If what the beta team says about late war (44-45) invasions being so costly holds true for most people, we could be in trouble without the old BBs to soften up beaches.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/7/2004 1:14:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo

It all depends on whether you want to practice for an "anything goes" game against a human player or just have fun against the AI.

Sub landings to occupy islands may be considered "gamey" by some and good tactics by others. Its entirely up to you how you want to play.


I hate this tactic and consider it not only gamey but cheating. I don't like house rules but this is one house rule I insist on using (well, sometimes I forgot to tell that to my opponent on time [:D])

I call this dirty trick "sub recon", and it completely defeats the purpose of "proper" recon in the game. You lose few squads and get all names of all units in the base hex. Then why use Catalinas or Emilys for recon at all?

The house rule in my games is that ANY landing must be attempted with at least one whole unit. So if my opponent wants to risk couple of ships, and lose one whole unit to find out what I have in my base - he's free to do so, but no "sub recon" with 2 squads please.

And vs. the AI... geez, I mean AI won't call you cheat, but do you really need this kind of help vs the poor old stupid brain damaged AI? [:D][:D]

Oleg



DrewMatrix -> RE: Early Invasion of Marshall Islands by Allies (8/7/2004 7:37:21 AM)

quote:

Japan forces are in pices


And the moon, presumably is in Aquarius.[:)]



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