For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (Full Version)

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worr -> For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 9:42:29 PM)

What are the most obvious changes?

I can list a few:

1) The map--not just the size, but the relativity of true north

2) React range--one of the most requested features from UV

3) Moral effects--you can march through the jungle and fight!

4) Fatigue effect--you can keep CAP and fight longer

5) CAP--you don't have to park your CVs on the invasion island and thus invoke port penalties. Very nice feature for friendly convoys (like going around the tip at Singapore) going on by your airfield can get support

6) Shore guns--much more effective

7) Mines--like an earlier path of UV that can sink more MSWs

OK, what am I missing?

Worr, out



Mr.Frag -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 9:47:28 PM)

Land combat greatly changed. Current UV players will pretty much be assured of loosing every fight using UV style of combat. Fatigue and Disruption modifiers can cripple a unit that a few turns of rest would fix.

Amphib landings MUST have support ships to counter-battery the defenders or you will take MASSIVE losses.



hithere -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 9:48:27 PM)

the production system for Japan and the raw materal req. for Japan and Australia



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 9:53:22 PM)

8) Squadron sizes---especialy B17 groups. Navy squads are the same...but airforce groups are huge!

9) Rest--has a more immediate impact on the game.

I think what you said, Mr Frag applies to 9 above. Yes, I find a forced march, rest, then attack makes a big difference.

However, I don't find the necessary 2 - 1 or 3 - 1 odds before attacking are necessary any more as they were in UV. There is greater disparity in forces in WiTP that allows a smaller force to dislodge a larger force.

Worr, out



AmiralLaurent -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 10:05:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: worr

8) Squadron sizes---especialy B17 groups. Navy squads are the same...but airforce groups are huge!



But if you want squadrons (UV size) you can divide the units. Works also for Japanese Sentai and useful for some (for example the recon Sentai with 36 planes... even if I liked the Ki-46 Sentai in UV and used it extensively for naval search from Rabaul with far lesser losses than with floatplanes or Betties/Nells)



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 10:24:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

But if you want squadrons (UV size) you can divide the units.


You sure about that? Some of those incoming B-17 in UV groups were only 6 planes.

I'm playing the Guadalcannal scenario in WiTP and the groups are 46 planes strongs, and if a group is three squadrons, that is a far cry from UV. Seems like quite a chagne in OOB.

Guess I need to add another:

10) Combat sizes...upgraded to divisions from regements, and army groups from squadrons. Special landing forces are still the same size, so also navy squadrons.

Worr, out



AmiralLaurent -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 10:39:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: worr

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

But if you want squadrons (UV size) you can divide the units.


You sure about that? Some of those incoming B-17 in UV groups were only 6 planes.

I'm playing the Guadalcannal scenario in WiTP and the groups are 46 planes strongs, and if a group is three squadrons, that is a far cry from UV. Seems like quite a chagne in OOB.



All B-17 units in UV were of 12 planes (theorical) but stocks were always too low. Yes you're right now BG groups are theorically 72-plan strongs and will be divided into 24-planes squadrons (or maybe 48 and 16)

Another big changes

11) Much secondary units (ENG, AA) are included into bigger units. Base Force have some INF and may resist and even repulse a small INF unit.

12) You can change the commanders of all land units

13) Your land units may (well, should) prepare for their next missions, getting 1-2 % a day and gettin gready at 100%, then reducing casualties and increasing their assault values when they attack the choosen target. So you need to decide your targets months in advance to be efficient. You can also prepare a unit to defend a position.

14) land units may train. Every unit with 100% preparation on any target may gain exp each day up to EXP 75

15) you may disable the replacements and upgrade of your units, so having a ful lcontrol on your reserves



mjk428 -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 11:27:39 PM)

You can choose the commander for your air units. Not need to intentionally try and get bad commanders killed now. ;)

AAA is much more effective.



turn2 -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/22/2004 11:35:41 PM)

Sighting rules seemed to have changed slightly. It seemed in UV, if I had patrol aircraft up, I'd see every ship that entered its patrol area. I have had several nasty surprises in WitP so far...I like it.



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/23/2004 12:14:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: turn2

Sighting rules seemed to have changed slightly. It seemed in UV, if I had patrol aircraft up, I'd see every ship that entered its patrol area. I have had several nasty surprises in WitP so far...I like it.


Not so sure that is a real chage, because much depends on the skill level of the spotter.

Number 12 above should be revised to include navy commanders.

Number 15 could have the additional change that replacements are delivered in field.

Worr, out



UncleBuck -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/23/2004 12:27:59 AM)

I think it is also a big change in the Time element. I have found in my first Scen 15 game that I have been to impatient. I try to get things going at a pace for UV and it is just to fast for WitP. Take UV timetables and move them down about 1/2 and you can cope, I think. That is what I am going to do in my next game, starting tonight.

UB



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/24/2004 5:22:45 PM)

Not familiar with the time element.

Worr, out



pry -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/24/2004 5:36:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

I think it is also a big change in the Time element. I have found in my first Scen 15 game that I have been to impatient. I try to get things going at a pace for UV and it is just to fast for WitP. Take UV timetables and move them down about 1/2 and you can cope, I think. That is what I am going to do in my next game, starting tonight.

UB


One of the more interesting things about collecting saves for reported bugs is that I can get an overall picture and feel of how folks are playing the game.

Two of the biggest problem areas I have noticed are,

Allied players if they admit it or not are playing the game 100% based on hindsight, every one is going for the bases they *KNOW* become important later in the war and they are playing at a much faster pace then the historical war was fought at.

Japanese players are *NOT* paying enough attention to getting Oil and resources back to Japan, I've seen 3 saves where the Japanese players economy was right on the verge of total collapse in mid-42.



DJAndrews -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/24/2004 5:53:41 PM)

The time needed to take and consolidate a semi-major base is substantially different than in UV and the tenacity of the retreating Japanese is remarkable (after the base has been captured). In the Mariannas campaign, I captured Saipan on July 15 with about 50K troops compared to 30K Japanese (after beating down the fortifications). A month later the base has been built up to 4(P)/7(A), I have 60 K of supplies and fuel and 60K troops who have been attacking the Japanese who survived. The Japanese have been unsupplied for all that time and I've been attacking almost daily (resting just enough to maintain about an 80% active troop rate) and there are still about 18000 enemy troops left (I'm killing about 500 a day). Oh yeah, they've also been under constant air attack and occasional ship bombardment. Tough buggers. I hope the Allied troops give as good an account of themselves in the game.



Mr.Frag -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/24/2004 6:12:18 PM)

This is exactly *why* it took time to kick Japan back out and the USA bypassed anything they could. Japan may not be the best of the best, but when it comes to guys on an island where they don't plan on leaving alive, clearing them out takes a whole lot of time.



Scona -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/24/2004 7:02:22 PM)

Speaking as a UV player who has only been following WITP only through the forums, it seems the major change from one game to the next is the strategic picture a player faces.
Aside from the fact that you have more "stuff" to push around, WITP presents you with a 360 degree playing field, unlike the tightly defined "box" we all know in UV. So it seems that the player best able to multi task on several fronts in this enviorment will be favoured.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/24/2004 7:16:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

The time needed to take and consolidate a semi-major base is substantially different than in UV and the tenacity of the retreating Japanese is remarkable (after the base has been captured). In the Mariannas campaign, I captured Saipan on July 15 with about 50K troops compared to 30K Japanese (after beating down the fortifications). A month later the base has been built up to 4(P)/7(A), I have 60 K of supplies and fuel and 60K troops who have been attacking the Japanese who survived. The Japanese have been unsupplied for all that time and I've been attacking almost daily (resting just enough to maintain about an 80% active troop rate) and there are still about 18000 enemy troops left (I'm killing about 500 a day). Oh yeah, they've also been under constant air attack and occasional ship bombardment. Tough buggers. I hope the Allied troops give as good an account of themselves in the game.


No, Allied troops surrender when they are defeated and can't retreat. Marines may do the same perhaps as Japanese, in the same situation, but even them were allowed to surrender when out of supplies and ammo.

The strategic planning is increased by the size of the map, that will divide by 2 the speed of TF sailing from one point to another. So if you want to invade PM from Japan, ships will take one month to go there.

Another difference is that 60-miles hexes are used rather than 30-miles. That means that ship's speed are halved by two. And there is a rather bad secondary effect: TF are far more likely to meet each other. When you had 4 hexes in UV, you have only one in WITP so you have four more chance to intercept an enemy TF with sub or ASW group or surface force. It seems to me that the probability of a real encounter is the same as in UV despite the fact that the hexes are 4 times greater. So the ASW groups have really no problem to find submarines.

Just for a TF that crosses a WITP hex, in UV it will sail across 2 of them (out of the corresponding 4), so your chance to attack a TF with a sub if twice bigger.



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (7/28/2004 6:53:27 PM)

I believe there was a change in surrender rules too...namely that you had to have a sufficient blocking force.

However, I remember trying to block Neva in UV....and the IJA retreated right through my raider battalion and on out the other side...retreating 60 miles! So it could be done in UV. :)

Worr, out



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/9/2004 1:36:23 AM)

Bump



Nikademus -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/9/2004 6:28:50 AM)

1) AA adjusted. Pre-20mm and 40mm AAA period is much less intensive now. (no more unescorted AK TF's taking large scale toll on aircraft). 20/40mm upgrades will substantially enhance AA. Introduction of "Proximity (VT) shell effect" for AA guns beginning in 1/43 and coming into full effectiveness by 10/43 will further increase AA effect still.

2.) Air to Air routines rewritten to enhance the effect of Experience

3.) Far greater level of control over air assets. (too many to list.)

4.) Undefended TF's will cancel unloading and retreat one hex if attacked by surface TF's (Combat round will still be initiated first)

5.) ASW greatly changed. "Camping" in shallow hexes and/or at bases is no longer a safe tactic. Allied "sub doctrine" option added.

6.) New TF mission types

a) "Escort" - crippled ships now can be sheperded back to base without players having to worry about the routines splitting off the cripple into it's own small TF (1 ship escort)

b) "ASW" - TF designed for sub hunt'in

c) several more types. (amphib/cargo/tanker etc) These are for AI use. (function for human players same as "Transport")

5.) Has it been mentioned that the Ground combat routines were rewritten. Yeah....but the change is major enough that it deserves being mentioned twice. [:D]

6.) New air attack mission - City attack. (use for attacking industries/resources)

7) Search routines adjusted. Now the farther out you set your patrol planes......the less effective they are. (i.e. its now possible to sneak up on places)

8.) future objective toggle for ground LCU's and HQ's. The more points you earn (maximum 100) the better the unit fights at the objective (and takes less losses if amphibious on landing)

9) LCU zones of control added (upcoming patch)

10) Burma Road rule - Now there's a reason to fight for Burma. If Myitkyna and Lashio are in Allied hands, the Chinese get a daily supply bonus.

11.) Political Points/restricted HQ's. Simulates (abstractly) the need/requirement for certain theaters to retain the assets assigned to them. (such as Manchuria or Australia or West coast) You can reassign assets for your devious plans.....but you have to pay for them first.

12.) Engineers at a base can now damage industrial assets upon loss of the base.

13.) Player controllable upgrade and replacement controls

14.) Northern weather zone (Alaska). Bad weather....all the time. (not really.....most of the time [;)] )

15.) Urban combat bonus. Fighting in a city is no longer fun.

17) Pursuit mode. Players who chose a shock attack can order their units to pursue the fleeing enemy.

18.) Zero combat bonus. +5 MVR at start. It diminishes 1 MVR point per month until it reaches normal MVR rating. Represents the suprise/shock value of the new plane due to lack of intel and underestimation of enemy capabilities and the gradual rectifying of that situation.

19.) Pilot survival rules tweaked. In general, the closer to a friendly base....better chance for a pilot to survive being downed. Being directly over a friendly base is particularily helpful.

20.) Pilot pool. (organ music plays in background) Yep...shall we make that....the infamous pilot pool? [:D] Basically a supply of "highly qualified graduates" with a monthly production rate. If drained, you get pilots roughly half the exp value base on type (IJN/USMC/Oz etc)

21.) Easter egg. Cant tell you where it is, but if you find it and click on it.....SPAM email gets sent to Mr Frag's home email address. Click it often.

22.) CV carrier coordination rule. Affects both Japanese and Allied but Allied much more (before 1943) Chance for breakup of large strikes dependant on size of strike.

23.) Avgas points added for CV's Now CV's no longer have unlimited ability to strike targets (ammo-wise) 1 plane on 1 strike costs 1 point. (CAP and search are exempted)

24.) a swath of new vessel types including repair ships, replenishment ships, sub and DD tenders and amphibious command ships

25.) "Spoilage rule" Dumping mass supply points on size 1 or "dot" hex (size 0) is no longer good strategy. (greater the supply dump vs base size ratio....the greater the spoilage. Size 10 exempted.

26.) Size 10 ports. Cannot build too.....these bases represent major ports/shipyards and are fixed in the scenerio (example, Pearl harbor....Kure, San Francisco)

27.) Garrison requirements for Manchuria and China.... The latter controls whether or not a Soviet activation can occur earlier than historical. The latter pertains to Chinese cities with industries. Dont maintain enough assault points and chinese partisans do the nasty on your industry.

28.) British Eastern Fleet withdrawl requirement. Ignore it if you wish....it'll just cost you Political Points every month. Ships with too much damage wont qualify either.

29.) Auto convoy system button. Allows detail control of ships in the auto convoy system at hub for both sides. (Japan - Osaka, Allies - San Francisco/Karachi

30.) Regional weather zone toggle. Shows map wide weather forcast based on region

31.) CD guns much more resiliant against air attack



CMDRMCTOAST -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/9/2004 6:53:48 AM)

I think one of the best improvements is setting carriers to attack airfields and ports well
in advace of the arrival to the location in question, eliminates the wasted turn after arrival to attack the base or airfields.



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/10/2004 3:03:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
23.) Avgas points added for CV's Now CV's no longer have unlimited ability to strike targets (ammo-wise) 1 plane on 1 strike costs 1 point. (CAP and search are exempted)


Great additions to the list!

Where can you find the Avgas points listed in the menus provided in the game?

Worr, out



cyberwop36 -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/10/2004 4:53:39 AM)

AP's and AK's are now vastly different ships due to new loading rules. 1 point of capacity for 1 squad on a AP but 3 point of capacity used for each supply point. 1 squad on a AK takes up 6 point of capacity.

You now have to use AP's and AK's for what they were built for. This makes AP's much move valuable than they were in UV [just a couple of knots faster].



Nikademus -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/10/2004 7:41:17 AM)

you'll find it when clicking on a specific carrier. right section of display.



DJAndrews -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/10/2004 2:36:14 PM)

One of the most pleasant changes has been discovering that planes flying CAP over their CV or base will detach aircraft and extend their patrol to cover TFs that are up to 2 hexes away (so long as the home CV or base isn't under severe attack).



worr -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/17/2004 6:36:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

you'll find it when clicking on a specific carrier. right section of display.


Thanks!



P_DEX -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/17/2004 9:45:03 PM)

Wow, thanks for posting all of this informative stuff. Much appreciated by a fence-sitting UV player.

Now I've read the FAQ which says that there are a few scenarios in the game that are "canned"...in that there is none of this production, political, factories, type of thing...you know, like UV is. I was wondering if there are any of you guys out there who have played these scenarios and what your opinions are of these scenarios? And are there any custom one's out there?

The reason why I'm asking is that while I enjoy a grog-level wargame such as UV, I'm one of the few who really don't want to have to bother with the added micro-management of home front production and the like such as WiTP. Just give me a map area with a crap load of ships, planes, etc. and let me loose. :)

Thanks in advance. And apologies if I have hijacked this thread.



caslug -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/17/2004 10:29:24 PM)

Supplies is a HUGE difference IMO. In UV Truk had unlimited what you were short of is land and ship units. In WITP, JAP players you'll have enough transport(first couple of years) & troops, BUT NOT ENOUGH SUPPLIES to conduct lots of operation. You have tons of base forces and SNFL units capture as many undefend(but important) places you want, but you can't supply them unit you start capturing major resource center in SRA. It really makes the old military cliche, "amateur talk about strategies while professional talk about logistics".



OG_Gleep -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/19/2004 8:28:02 AM)

quote:

Wow, thanks for posting all of this informative stuff. Much appreciated by a fence-sitting UV player.


Ditto. I have been reading the forums for a while now(past 6 hours today), and threads like this make me want to march off to war (with the wife that is. $69.99 = WWIII).

One question: Are the Docs from UV regarding ship combat roles, (Forget who the author was, but he broke down each class of ship into 6 or 7 combat roles based off of current and future stats, esp valuable for the multitude of DD classes) useable in WitP?



CMDRMCTOAST -> RE: For those of you coming from uncomon valor.... (9/19/2004 4:08:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P_DEX

Wow, thanks for posting all of this informative stuff. Much appreciated by a fence-sitting UV player.

Now I've read the FAQ which says that there are a few scenarios in the game that are "canned"...in that there is none of this production, political, factories, type of thing...you know, like UV is. I was wondering if there are any of you guys out there who have played these scenarios and what your opinions are of these scenarios? And are there any custom one's out there?

The reason why I'm asking is that while I enjoy a grog-level wargame such as UV, I'm one of the few who really don't want to have to bother with the added micro-management of home front production and the like such as WiTP. Just give me a map area with a crap load of ships, planes, etc. and let me loose. :)

Thanks in advance. And apologies if I have hijacked this thread.


The forums are for everyone.....

There are several smaller games that you can play UV style although the
larger campaigns can be set to computor control in zones that you don't
want to deal with and you can always go into the computor controlled
zones and make a few changes like move some task forces out or run some supply's
to other zones, make base adjustments etc......
for most of us though once you have everything moving after the first week or so
it really doesn't take much time to turn out turns and make adjustments to things.
You will find yourself engrossed into the whole theater of operations though as it is hard not to be involved in every zone...



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