Ok I am a bit mental here, but errrr its ruining the game (Full Version)

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Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> Ok I am a bit mental here, but errrr its ruining the game (1/20/2002 5:29:00 AM)

I posted this in the Combat Leader forum but I want to get input in here as well. tis is what I wrote Well its not reeeeally that bad, buuuuut.
I am playing a Steel Panthers Scenario right at the moment.
Really nice looking first two turns but...... ooohhh dang it this couldnt happen in ASL, they have rules that prevent it from happening. Yeah I know the ASL manual is a massive piece of reading...so what. I have read the posts about penetration and armour thicknesses ad nauseum for Steel Panthers....so no one is going to sell me on how my forum mates cant stomache some extreme detailing in their game. I have a column..... a whole dang column damn it...15 shermans nose to tail. I have two sherman 105s off the road to the right letting em pass. I have a jeep down a few hexes on the tree line keeping an eye on that road that goes south; I have m10's in the trees just across a field in some trees; I have an m8 scout car at the crossroads I am currently straddling. Two turns in a row, 2 turns one after the other, I get german armour popping out of nowhere sitting in the middle of my damn column of shermans. First it was two king tigers which got swarmed one ran away (got him next turn though) but the firt trashed two shermans before I got him. Then it was two jadgpanthers and 4 8 rad armoured cars (none of them made it either) but not before shooting two more of my shermans. Do I wait for turn three to see what else the Romulan-Germans stuff down my throat? In ASL the player gets told "sorry your entry hex is occupied go elsewhere or wait till next turn". But in Steel Panthers, nope, due this turn in this hex so deal with it. What good is accurate penetration figures and all that hooey people waste their evenings over, if the game cant handle the simple fact, that the computer doesnt possess cloaking devices and matter transporter devices. That road was CLOSED off. Having those tanks appear like that makes the scenario a joke regardless of who wrote it up. And this is part of the game itself, so its going to happen in any scenario. Which means designing scenarios is a waste of time, due to the fact they cant model reality at all. So hmmmm maybe I just wont give a hoot if there IS other scenarios out there online (no point in playing them).
Soooooooooo whats being done in CL to eliminate the Romulan cloaking device matter transporter insanity. No I aint calling this a "bug" (hate that friggin word). This is clearly a design error in judgment. Will it be in CL? man I hope not. Will it be hard to design it into the game. Heck I dont know I dont design software. But I could have written up the entry rules for ASL easy. And computers are suuuuuposed to be sooooo dang good at making maaaaaany decisions so darn fast. Surely it can be incorporated into a game engine that the entry of new units has to be deferred to an new eligible hex till one is found. Further more. In ASL it is often stated that vehicles have to enter onto the map in column. Why must Steel Panthers ignore spatial reality by putting every vehicle simultaneously into one hex at point of entry? Again this is something that "might" be made into the software...so why hasnt it been. A good wargame is more than getting some notes on armour thickness right eh guys. If the simulation is a joke, then getting armour thickness right is immaterial. Who cares if an accurately portrayed tiger can appear out of thin air. I am not looking for Steel Panthers to change, cause I know it wont be. I will sure be feeling let down though if CL is just a cool updated but illogical successor. So when you get the armour thicknesses finished, make sure the game plays like it was modelling reality PLEEEEEEEASE. Otherwise, forget the scenarios, they wont be worth playing. Which would suck, cause I WANT to play a few good scenarios now and then. ASL set the precedent for me, if Steel Panthers makes no sense and CL ends up the same, it would be a shame if I had to say awwww screw it and go back to just playing ASL.



ubertechie -> (1/20/2002 5:57:00 AM)

couldnt agree more - anyway why dont units have to enter at the maps edge ? - if they are not on the map at the start then how the hell can they appear anywhere but at the edges - maybe there is a tunnel system that we are all unaware of ? - there is nothing i hate more than having cleared an area to have something materialise out of it. It makes gameplaying unatural as you play to the engine rather than the situatiion - but hey the rest of the game is pretty darn good - especially as its free. Ubertechie



Antonius -> (1/20/2002 6:09:00 AM)

I see what scen you're talking about. Can't remember the name but I remember it well since the same thing happened to me The bright side is that this spontaneous generation of ennemy tanks right in the middle of one my columns has only happened once even though there are reinforcements in plenty of scens... So I think that here we're mainly suffering from a poor scen design... that US flanking move along the southern road is so tempting that it is almost predictable and the reinforcements should arrive somewhere else or earlier, or those German tanks should simply start there... Allowing reinforments near ennemy units helps making good commando/partisan scens so I don't think the feature should be eliminated. Or it has to give the scen designer options: allow, displace or delay the reinforcement if ennemy units are within a given radius... I do agree about the columns... but I also remember the time when there were no reinforcements in the game at all. Is the glass half empty or half full ?



Khan7 -> (1/20/2002 9:05:00 AM)

Yes, I agree totally, you ARE *quite* mental.. Dude, turn off the computer, have a snack, take a walk. Breathe deeply. Ah, that's better, isn't it? .. But anyway, if the tanks weren't to "magically transport", then they'd have to appear at some other hex. If you wanted to "model reality", this would have to be some hex that is logical based on how the tanks would supposedly be getting to the hex that is surrounded. Programming it would be a bitch and it would take another 5 or 6 versions to get everything ironed out. And for what? So instead of the tanks popping up in the MIDDLE of your column they pop up TO ONE SIDE, or DOWN THE ROAD?? Is it really THAT important?? You're gonna deal with the tanks somehow'r another, geez. Or, of course, it could simply be made so that the tanks *could not* appear, which (sigh, as long as we're into Star Trek analogies) would essentially be giving you the power of the Prophets to block the wormhole (ack, that's a really dumb-sounding analogy.. sigh). But, of course, the enemy tanks aren't coming through a wormhole, and you aren't the prophets.. (quit while I'm ahead with this one). As far as tanks having to come out in columns, I am forced to ask, is it THAT frieking important?? Hexes are 50x50 anyways, so it's not as if the tanks are literally *on top* of one another. And you can always form them into a column *after* they arrive. Having them all arrive in the same hex is simply an easy, simple, and perfectly functional way of dealing with an issue that if people who are "a bit mental" had their way could be very very complicated and effort-consuming. Anyway, I'm off for that snack and walk and deep breathing myself. Whooh, this game does know how to soak up the hours. Matt



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (1/20/2002 9:14:00 AM)

Got a reply from Paul in the CL forum (my same post essentially). As he put it (and was not entirely aware of), its a reflection of the scenario designers whim. Has nothing to do with the game itself, just lousy scenario judgement. Yes I said LOUSY scenario judgment. I aint afraid to say that loud and clear. LOUSY!!!!! Whomever made that scenario, and whomever would support such a notion, that notion SUCKED!!
Ok now that we are clear on that matter. You scenario designers.......stop polluting the game with scenarios designed by half wits eh. Yes I am annoyed. I dont care for all the rants about penetration; bit to fussy; but those guys at least do us some manner of useful service constantly trying to make the game more real.
So you scenario designers, listen up, stop wasting people's time with poorly thought out notions you should have realised wont do anything to model the event in any way shape or form. Its one thing for an unexpected column of armour to enter the battle like they did in real life, quite another if they usurp the laws of physics. If I have the terrain under direct observation; if I even have the damn terrain occupied; then the reinforcements popping out like that only can cause one result "do you wish to end game now?" "yes damnit". And the scenario designer wasted their time on a useless effort.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (1/20/2002 9:30:00 AM)

On the subject of programing difficulty though, hmmm dont wait for sympathy here. Yes I know designing software is hard, plenty of things are hard. But the difficulty level is what separates the men from the boys eh. I am not looking for a change to Steel Panthers (bit late for that eh what).
But then again its the scenarios at fault actually..... so its not reeeeally Steel Panthers thats the problem I guess eh (according to what Paul told me over in the CL forum). So thats the point, the scenarios CAN be made logical CAN be made historical, and CAN have the realism that we Steel Panthers fans quite clearly demand. Tanks appearing out of thin air, no excuse at all for it. Just indicates the scenario designer lacks imagination or skill or both.
Hey if they can do it with ASL they sure better be able to do it on a computer. ASL is more than a decade old now. Its not like the idea is new. As for the armour appearing here or maybe there or possibly over there. Well given a choice, I would say it was either there when I started the game or it wont be there period ever.
Putting pieces on the board after the game has begun is commonly referred to as cheating. Heck I wont let my friends do that, what makes a scenario designer think I am willing to let the computer do it.



Khan7 -> (1/20/2002 11:57:00 AM)

Dude, GO BACK ON YOUR MEDICATION! It was perscribed for a reason.. Matt



Alexandra -> (1/20/2002 12:22:00 PM)

Seems to me, Les, that what you ran into is an Ambush. An Ambush is defined as 'an arrangement of persons hiding to make a suprise attack'. Now, does the game engine model ambushes perfectly? No, it does not. It does, however, do a reasonable job. Could tank hide in the woods and ambush a column? Yes, they could. Happened 100s of times in WWII, so it's clearly not ahistorical. Now, you also say that you can't 'put units on the board after the game starts' in ASL, but, in fact, in certain scenario's you can. They're called - if I recall correctly - hidden units, and you note what they are, and what hex they are in, on paper, to post game verify that they were there. SP: WaW does this too. Units can only 'spwan' in r-hexes. If one is near your advance, watch out for baddies. And, as many vehicles can easily fit in a 50x50 meter area, I won't even mention the silliness of the column thing. ASL does it becuase of Counter Size and not because only 1 tank can be every 25 meters. Alex



Galka -> (1/20/2002 1:01:00 PM)

And, as many vehicles can easily fit in a 50x50 meter area, I won't even mention the silliness of the column thing. ASL does it becuase of Counter Size and not because only 1 tank can be every 25 meters. [/QUOTE] Say, I keep hearing about ASL. Is it a benchmark game that SP might aspire to, or an ancient boardgame with it's own failings? One fellow I play with was trying to get me interested in it(the boardgame) , but mentioned that it is also a computer game.



Khan7 -> (1/20/2002 4:41:00 PM)

Just to try and burn out some potential fuel here, I will note, Alex, that the "ambush" idea pretty much doesn't hold water, as if there were an "ambush" the tanks would already be on the map, hidden and in cover, wherever off in the trees or whatever. Having things popping out of an r-hex, which means the unit comes out into the open and you get to shoot first, could not in any logical way shape or form be concieved of as an ambush. In fact, from what I'm hearing from Les, it was more like a slaughter. Killed 2 King Ts, 2 JPanthers, 4 armored cars, at a cost of 4 Shermans?? Sounds like he should be thanking the "teleporting Romulans". That said, I of course maintain my general support of the positions you espouse. Matt



Warrior -> (1/20/2002 8:03:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Got a reply from Paul... As he put it (and was not entirely aware of), its a reflection of the scenario designers whim. Has nothing to do with the game itself, just lousy scenario judgement. Yes I said LOUSY scenario judgment. I aint afraid to say that loud and clear. LOUSY!!!!! Whomever made that scenario, and whomever would support such a notion, that notion SUCKED!!
Find out who designed the scenario and complain to him. Chances are good that: 1) the scenario was designed a long time ago, and 2) the designer isn't around anymore to bitch at. Or, rather than let your blood pressure spike, you could just figure it's one of those inexplicable mysteries of war (how those guys could get past all yours) and rise to the challenge. [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Warrior ]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (1/20/2002 10:23:00 PM)

Galka, not everyone thinks the world is a reflection of ASL (maybe just me heheh ) It is a testament to the game though, that it was designed originally as Squad Leader, and has evolved just like our Steel Panthers. Only difference is Squad Leader has been selling, and is still selling since the mid 70's (and thats impressive). It morphed into ASL Advanced Squad Leader in the 80's, survived the death of its parent originating company, and was revived by the people at MMP Multi Man Publishing (they have a good web site). Anyone that has ever wanted to chat personally with Curt Shilling can reach him there as he owns the company eh.
Its not cheap to acquire though. The entirety of purchasing all that is ASL is like buying a new P4 system one payment eh (and that includes every peripheral you can plug into it too). As for the ambush, hmmmmmm yeah ASL has hidden units, I guess I missed that part. So I will have to eat that detail. The counter size thing though is wrong. Only limit to stacking units in a hex is the units real life mass as represented in the rules. That and of course you can only stack so many counters on top of each other before the stack wobbles and falls over to I guess. But in defense of my point. Those hidden units would poof lose their hidden status the instant I entered the hex though. Being there suddenly next turn, nope that WONT happen in ASL. So I can still state, the scenario allowing it to happen here in SPWaW is clumsy and doesnt model ambushes; its just a poorly incorporated effect nothing more. Some game effects I dont mind where detection is concerned. I have no problem with my tank not being able to see that enemy vehicle "its right over there dummy!!". I find this aspect credible. Drives my friend absolutely nuts but he doesnt like it when I coerce him into playing in france in 1940, and driving Matildas up point blank to his panzer 3s through a smoke screen (its not pretty). I also like the Command and Control feature; it does a nice job of taming the god mode nature of the game. Perfection would be if CL could incorporate some sort of "discover the terrain progressively" feature like is common with all the games out there. I would find it fun not having total control over what I know of the battlefield to some extent (although I will admit, it only takes one recon aircraft to eliminate that hassle). Blah blah blah ramble ramble, still say the element of romulan cloaked matter transporting enemy armour needs to be designed out of CL. As for scenarios that are already made, looks like many have already commented on whether a scenario is valid or not just on the basis of interacting with the latest version of the game. That much I have never worried over. So what if my tigers or shermans behave differently from one version to the next. Odds are the players choices of how to use them will be so intrinsically different from last game to make it hard to notice. Not planning on nit picking each and every scenario. Just would like to stop seeing scenarios with units defying reality, yep I said reality. And I know how easy it is to detect a hidden tank (from personal experience), but its not impossible.



Redleg -> (1/21/2002 1:30:00 AM)

Try setting the Spotting Preference to about 50%. That will affect how much you can see. Keeps me entertained but hampers my ability to beat up on the AI.



ruxius -> (1/21/2002 2:08:00 AM)

Hello Les..I still fail to plot a line of your charachter..I am wondering how you can go berserk so easily for such reasons where it seems to be clear that SPWAW tries to design some general rules that (unfortunately for your patience )applies in many many different contexts..so it may be VERY difficult to test some features around all possible contexts...
Why to be so angry ? why saying that designers ruined your day..? at least why do you play SPWAW as a fight for life ? I can't understand ... Let me say now few words for designers..
You know everyone of us can decide to be a designer one day and no license is needed to do this 'job' .
I love this approach as anyone is allowed to count in ..you too !
Starting from this point is very very important to realize that you should never expect too much from a scenario because everyone is human and humans always fail !
Not so many are professors..some of them simply read a book and get excited from the idea of representing its experience here..why to forbid this possibility ?
If you like , MAtrix could take the responsability to include only scenarios which were rated positively somewhere/elsewhere...
On the other hand I think Matrix should employ its time in other places much more important than this sector , obviously .
And what if ever that designer decided to kidding your time ? well that is a risk you always should accept before any scenario you try ...if you like freedom .
Consider that consequences of a designer kidding his players is not so free from punishment..you first , will never play a scenario from that designer ! anyhow you should realize that your rage must be directed toward him.. Now consider that he may have designed that scenario also misunderstanding some later behaviors of what he was doing...
maybe later versions changed some OOBs,and so the behavior of taht units ...also you KNOW playtesting exists exactly for trying to give some control to things! Maybe he never realized that something could cloak that way or simply he never was able to understand that he had better to let the tanks entering the hex one per turn ...
Write to him and give to him your vote..and when he answers he does not care about you then , only then I will better understand your hate ! Since there is not a test to be passed for having your scenario approved from Matrix (but at least a name and an e-mail address should be always provided and tested when MAtrix decide to include scenarios!! that should be the only test) ..I think we are enough adult to understand that a scenario should be taken AS IS..you always read this words when you install any software , remember ? if a software who asks to you money ,writes this words I would not expect something like a scenario to own more warranties . Try to design a scenario by your self and look for people comments..you maybe will find sometimes it's not so easy.. P.S I never designed any secnario actually but I will do it in the future...now I am sure..I will write : "WARNING : Please mister Les the sarge , I will pray you not to play my scenario..or if you do consider that the worse can be here..forgive me " Bye
Bye [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: ruxius ]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (1/21/2002 7:12:00 AM)

Heeheheheheheeh
"Plot a line of my character" now thats something that wont get anyone anywhere eh
Anyone that has ever seen my web page will agree, its a waste of time trying to fully understand Les. Its not going to happen guys
Just not possible to pigeon hole Les. I am opinionated, but everyone here already knows that I dont get emotional over specific comments directed at me though (my drill instructors made me immune to garden variety comments). I am vehement about the Romulan cloaking Matter Transporter effect primarily becaaaaaaaaause, its my area to complain I guess. I havent had anything to say on armour penetration for instance cause it doesnt interest me (that and all the math involved is way over my head). After aaaaaaaall, even though I did get jumped by 2 king tigers, they didnt make it past 2 turns before they were burning hulks. And the batch of 8 rads and the 2 jagdpanthers went the same route for a reasonable trade in 4 shermans. So armour penetration is an issue that doesnt always matter to me. Ya can blow up anything under the right conditions. But I was having fun driving my tanks down that road in a neat orderly looking formation, having a good time trying to command them in a reasoned out fashion, and poof hey where the heck did they come from, and no, hidden doesnt do it. Just got confirmation that my Texas girlfriend has ordered me Lost Victories though eh. So no I aint pulling out of playing the game, but I aint cutting poor scenario design any slack. Good or bad I will throw any name up on the pire if their scenario is a poorly thought out mess. Call them on it by name? nah I havent got time to track down individuals, that have almost certainly moved on to other things.
This is about me trying to ensure that the concept doesnt surface in CL actually (I originally posted this threads opening message in that forum actually, put it in here to ensure I wasnt missing chance to get comments from the gang in here).



lnp4668 -> (1/21/2002 11:00:00 PM)

Try to design a good scenario yourself, then complain. I have beens working on the great patriotic war and it is difficult as heck.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (1/22/2002 9:32:00 AM)

Hmmm design my own scenarios, nah only sounds good on the surface. But I dont do my own dental work, plumbing, computer repair, surgery, hair, electrical, auto work for a reason heheh Played a couple of Battles today, man slagged some butt real good with a couple of low point june 1941 Russia settings. Nothing like a quick fix of Steel Panthers.



AbsntMndedProf -> (1/23/2002 3:05:00 AM)

Just my two cents: In college I remember hearing of a strategy used by Czech tankers during the Czech uprising in the '50s. The Czech army was equipped with older model Soviet tanks. Czech tanks with crews sympathetic to the revolt would repaint their tanks to look like Soviet army AFVs. Then they would park in alley ways and wait for a Soviet AFV columb to go by. Then they would pull in at the end of the columb and open up on the weaker tail-ends of the Soviet units. Just a point of interest. Eric Maietta



Warhorse -> (1/23/2002 9:29:00 PM)

Yeah, sorry but the ambush thing don't wash! This topic has been gone over before ad nauseaum, but bottom line is that this kind of design blows it big time!! If a 50 meter area (149 feet)has been scouted out, andd is empty, I def don't buy tanks showing up, and getting first shots off, SCREW THAT!!! BTW, which scenario is it, I'll delete that puppy right now?!



AbsntMndedProf -> (1/23/2002 10:59:00 PM)

Perhaps the SP:WaW AI has gotten ahold of some Klingon cloaking devices . . . Eric Maietta



Grumble -> (1/23/2002 11:51:00 PM)

quote:

Say, I keep hearing about ASL. Is it a benchmark game that SP might aspire to, or an ancient boardgame with it's own failings? One fellow I play with was trying to get me interested in it(the boardgame) , but mentioned that it is also a computer game.

FWIW, I'm less than impressed with ASL. It's a dated technology (state of wargaming ca 1981), and has evolved into MASSIVE rules with games becoming exchanges of "Who read the rulebook last". In fact even the producers of the game defacto realized the monster it had become dy designing a "Game Assist Program" that handled some of the combat routines and the almost infinite dice rolling. Before some folks here, open up I HAVE played it and in fact won gaming tournaments in that particular simulation.
Many aspects of SL/ASL are in fact incorporated into SPWAW: morale, "national characteristics", and breakdowns. Your call naturally, but personally I'd rather game on a PC, than carry around a huge binder, a stack of mapboards and racks of thousands of counters...but that's just me



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