Tigers in Stalingrad? (Full Version)

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Gallo Rojo -> Tigers in Stalingrad? (1/24/2002 12:56:00 AM)

I'm reading Antony Beevor's book about Stalingrad ...
He mention at his book that there was a Tiger Batallion attached to Kirchner's LVII Armored Korps.
Wich batallion was that? sPzAbt 503?
Is there any scenario avaiable about it?
Do any of you have data about losses, battles fought, about this particular Tiger Abteilung during this particular time?
Tanks in advance.



Wild Bill -> (1/24/2002 12:26:00 PM)

I'm not the Tiger fanatic or that knowledgeable. If they did show up it was probably after the fact. I think the first Tigers were deployed by Army Group North in the Leningrad area in very late 42 or very early 43. That is trying to remember the facts. I'm sure others will be more precise..WB



Grenadier -> (1/24/2002 12:56:00 PM)

SPA 503 did not arrive until the 1st week of January and was unloaded at Rostov and sent to the Manych River area to join KG Sander, a part of Senger und Etterlin's 17th Panzer Division.



orsha -> (1/25/2002 2:43:00 AM)

17th Panzer division took part in operation WinterStorm to relieve stalingrad. Does that mean the Tigers were used in WinterStorm with the 503rd heavy battalion attached to the 17 PZ Division??.



Grenadier -> (1/25/2002 4:19:00 AM)

No. Wintergewitter was over by January and the LVII Panzer Korps had withdrawn from Kotelnikovo towards Manutchskaya. Tigers in Combat by Thomas jentz has the details



Gallo Rojo -> (1/25/2002 10:34:00 AM)

Thanks on the feedback guys
Antony Beevor's book says that Tigres saw action duringWinterstorm operation ...
But all I have read before said that 503 SPzAbt arrived to caucasus area after Winter Storm had finished ... It was very disgusting to me discovering such a mistake in this book Brent's comments puts light on all this Brent: do you know if 503 fought at the defence of Rostov? Tanks in advance



Grenadier -> (1/25/2002 2:13:00 PM)

Yes, it did. It was at Rostov defending the Batiask bridge crossings. Only one company of the abtielung was operational by then because of breakdown. Thomas jentz's Tigers in Combat has a lot of detail on this engagement. The best material about Wintergewitter is from "Neither Fear nor Hope" by Senger und Etterlin, Stalingrad by Heinz Schroter, and "Hitler Moves east" by paul carell. Another good book is the History of the 6 Panzer Division by Helmut Ringten. This was the primary division in LVII Panzer Korps, contributing 150 of the Korps 230 tanks.



Tombstone -> (1/25/2002 6:15:00 PM)

You'd be surprised how much error exists in many 'history' books about ww2. They often cite sources that weren't working on perfect data or in some cases just follow the generally held ignorant opinion. I'm reading "The Road to Berlin" by John Erikson. There are lots of errors. It suffers from the historical/mythical version of the battle of Kursk that puts 900 german tanks a hundred of which being Tigers at the scene of the July 11/12 Prokhorovka battles... I'm pretty sure there were like 30 Tigers and a couple hunded others, but a third of them were on the other side of a river dealing with their own problems (that's nowhere near 900). The book refers to 'groups of tanks hundreds strong' left and right. Certainly, it doesn't cover the battles in extreme detail, but getting facts so grossly in error is upsetting. It also refers to GrossDeutschland as an SS Panzer Division... there are several other instances of blatant innaccuracies. It's important to read as many different sources as possible, I think it's that there's so much data out there that it's easy to screw things up. I like David Glantz's works a lot. They always appear objective and thoughtful of possible exaggeration and take utilise both German and Soviet records to come to conclusions. Tomo



Gallo Rojo -> (1/25/2002 8:13:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Yes, it did. It was at Rostov defending the Batiask bridge crossings. Only one company of the abtielung was operational by then because of breakdown. Thomas jentz's Tigers in Combat has a lot of detail on this engagement. The best material about Wintergewitter is from "Neither Fear nor Hope" by Senger und Etterlin, Stalingrad by Heinz Schroter, and "Hitler Moves east" by paul carell. Another good book is the History of the 6 Panzer Division by Helmut Ringten. This was the primary division in LVII Panzer Korps, contributing 150 of the Korps 230 tanks.
Thanks again It would be very dificult for me to get any of those books here in Buenos Aires. Do you know about any web site where I can found data about this subget? Thanks again



Grenadier -> (1/25/2002 11:16:00 PM)

Tomo, For the Soviet records Erickson is really very good. I used his work as a lot of the material for Lost Victories. The reason GD is referred to as an SS division in Erickson is that the Soviets had it as an SS division. Erickson used older, pre-Glasnost Soviet sources and therefore that by itself is a problem. Glantz uses current Russian sources from the original archives, not the Istorii the Kremlin put out in the 60's. To balance Erickson, the Seaton book works best, "The Russo-German War" along with Ziemke, Moscow to Stalingrad" and "Stalingrad to berlin" coming from German OKH records and unit histories. The absolute worst book on Zitadelle is martin caidin's "The Tiger's are Burning". he has Tigers being destroyed all over the place at Kursk. [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Brent ]



Grenadier -> (1/25/2002 11:18:00 PM)

Use Stalingrad in a web search. I do not use the web for much of my research. Like the bookseller in "The Neverending Story" I prefer books.



Redleg -> (1/26/2002 6:18:00 AM)

Take some of these books with a grain of salt. I recently read a respected author's book and and a chapter was lifted verbatim from a U.S. Army Technical Manual..... almost word-for-word. Talk about deja-vous! ;-)



Gallo Rojo -> (1/26/2002 10:21:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Use Stalingrad in a web search. I do not use the web for much of my research. Like the bookseller in "The Neverending Story" I prefer books.
I prefer books to Brent. But as I said is dificule to find a wide variety of WW2 here (and I know all the books stores in the city, the specialized on military&history and the regular ones -I'm a writter-.
And the few ones that you can find are very expencive and get sold out very fast.



Gallo Rojo -> (1/26/2002 10:23:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo:
I prefer books to Brent.
I mean too



Grenadier -> (1/26/2002 1:13:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo:
I prefer books to Brent..
I'll try not to take that personally



Gallo Rojo -> (1/27/2002 12:03:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
I'll try not to take that personally
please don't do so!



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