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panda124c -> (1/29/2002 2:24:00 AM)

I like the idea of FTs being two man teams, spotting them would be hard, we know how easy it is to spot ATRs.
I see a new Engineering unit and Company formation. The engineering squad should have the FTs replaced with AT grenads in addition to the satchel charges, giving each army an early war close in AT unit (you can hunt down those Char B's with engineers)
The FTs would be placed in a two man team. The Engineering Company would consist of a command engineering squad, three platoon of three engineering squads each, a heavy weapons platoon of three MMGs and three FTs. This would allow the reassigning of the MMGs and FTs to other units as needed.
In use the FTs were assigned to units making assualts, the security for the FTs was provided by the squads the FT was assigned to. Tactically: the small size of the FT team would allow it to sneak up to fortifications and toast them from the front, and if they are spotted they will die real quick. Just remember nobody wanted to stand near an FT team in real life because when the FT tank was hit it tended to explode.



richmonder -> (1/29/2002 4:28:00 AM)

Kinda interesting suggestion, pbear. I do know a few guys are working on expanding the icon graphics to the max limit, and it would be great if they could create a FT unit, but I seem to remember that ALL infantry classes use the standard infantry icons (infantry, MG, or Inf-AT).



Galka -> (1/29/2002 5:20:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Antonius:
I have the feeling FTs AND SMGs are too powerfull while grenades are too weak.
Agreed. Part of the problem is that often battle takes place at 1hex. The two units could be adjacent or as far as 100m apart. Even at an average range of 50m how effective is a SMG, or FT? Even a grenade hurled 50m can't be too accurate. Maybe if SMGs were ranged down so that they would have to be used at 0 hexes, to be mass killers. FTs and Grenades could have generous kill ratings if they had a range of 0.



Mikimoto -> (1/29/2002 5:23:00 AM)

Very interesting thread. I recall some info about flamethrowers being given to German infantry squads. Were the FT exclusive of the assault engineers? or were given to other types of infantry? TIA



panda124c -> (1/29/2002 5:26:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by richmonder:
Kinda interesting suggestion, pbear. I do know a few guys are working on expanding the icon graphics to the max limit, and it would be great if they could create a FT unit, but I seem to remember that ALL infantry classes use the standard infantry icons (infantry, MG, or Inf-AT).
The engineer picture would have to change, it shows a Flame Thrower. I'm not famaliar with how to change the icon but I would think that using the Inf-AT or Scout team Icon would work best. I have found a major problem with the two man team (which is the class I used)idea and that is the Pioneer Units. The Pioneer platoon has four engineers, one MMG, and five HT, this adds up to ten units which is the max number of units in a formation. The foot works great. The other alternative is to reduce by one the number of engineering squads in a Pioneer Platoon.



Dogfish -> (1/29/2002 5:27:00 AM)

Hey Richmonder: You are correct that the game will overide any icon setting when it comes to infantry. It will use the default setting that is hard coded in the game somewhere. I've tried a few things....
1) Creating a new unit, with one of the infantry classes but with a new icon number gets overidden 2) renaming (hiding) the default shp file and testing item 1 above... overrides and displays no icon... If this had worked it would mean copying the default icon to another number, redoing all the infantry by giving them new icon numbers, and adding any new infantry icons that you wanted. The hardcoding was done so that you see a reflection of the number of men in a unit. And so that you see a change as the nuber goes down.
There are enough slots available to make changes that work however. It would be a matter of finding where the icon numbers are hard coded in the exe file. I'll put this on my to do list, but don't know when I'll get to it. Perhaps someone at Matrix could pass on some info...? I did make a single man icon of a swimmer holding a satchel charge out in front... looked good swimming or crawling up a beach... the forerunners of the UDT if you will... they were named a variety of things for different beach offensives during the war. Anyway, I had to change the single infantry icon in the default shp file in order to do this. The drawback here is that any infantry squad or crew that gets reduced to one man will display the swimmer icon. I could live with it, because the reduction to one man is rare and doesn't last long, and it looked good to see one man trying to crawl away even without a weapon, than to be standing with one in firing position. Don't think you could live with a two man FT icon when units are reduced to 2 men.



Galka -> (1/29/2002 5:31:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear:
I like the idea of FTs being two man teams,
Me too. Axis FT teams were very rare at the beginning of the war, and far more common at the end.

Initially engineers were equipped with PzBuche almost exclusively. Later even elite rifle companies had FT teams. Pretty tough to capture with the current inflexible engineer squad.



Redleg -> (1/29/2002 6:48:00 AM)

After perhaps 25-30 different OOBs, I hope that whatever "officially" is done, gets done and I can finally play this game with the same OOBs for a while. Most of these arguments about SMG, engineer power,
etc have been going on for a couple of years. If someone wants to make their own OOBs, that is great but I'd like to see a "final", official OOB and let it lie for a while. I'm sure we all have a list of what we would consider to be improvements.



panda124c -> (1/29/2002 6:50:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Galka:
Me too. Axis FT teams were very rare at the beginning of the war, and far more common at the end.

Initially engineers were equipped with PzBuche almost exclusively. Later even elite rifle companies had FT teams. Pretty tough to capture with the current inflexible engineer squad.
Yes but by 1943 (according to my source Almark Pub. Panzer Grenadiers) the 14th Company of a PzGrd Regiment contained an Engineering Company with 12 LMG's and Eighteen (18) Flamethrowers. To over come the Icon problem I just classed the FT's as Light Infantry which gives a infantry icon with number of men. And there are no other Light Infantry (I can find) in the German (which is the one I am working with) OOB which also means that there is no purchase option (this is the way that you can purchase MG34 or MG42 late in the war without making a new unit). The problem still remains with the Pioneer platoon, not enough space in the formation for 11 units. So it looks like the only solution is two different engineer squads, one with a FT and one without. And assign one of the FT engineers to each platoon.



Antonius -> (1/29/2002 7:04:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Redleg:
After perhaps 25-30 different OOBs, I hope that whatever "officially" is done, gets done and I can finally play this game with the same OOBs for a while. Most of these arguments about SMG, engineer power,
etc have been going on for a couple of years. If someone wants to make their own OOBs, that is great but I'd like to see a "final", official OOB and let it lie for a while. I'm sure we all have a list of what we would consider to be improvements.
Very much agreed Redleg.
I don't use modified Oobs as I want to have a standard OOBb for all games and easy to start PBEM ones. That's one of the reason you never saw me taking part in such debates before.
How does one get the community to agree on a list ?



Galka -> (1/29/2002 9:20:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear:
Yes but by 1943 (according to my source Almark Pub. Panzer Grenadiers) the 14th Company of a PzGrd Regiment contained an Engineering Company with 12 LMG's and Eighteen (18) Flamethrowers. Yep, that sounds about right.

The problem still remains with the Pioneer platoon, not enough space in the formation for 11 units. So it looks like the only solution is two different engineer squads, one with a FT and one without. And assign one of the FT engineers to each platoon.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point. If the FT teams were added on the tail end of a company selection couldn't they have their own category. There are two problems here. 1. Engineers have no Panzerbuche for the early part of the war, then 2.
The amount of FT available to German troops rose steadily during the war. Seems like an easy choice for a company selection.
Choose an amount of Panzerbuche and later, FT teams. The teams are good for several reasons stated in earlier posts, such as they are harder to spot, but are easy to kill.



Charles2222 -> (1/29/2002 10:02:00 AM)

Mogami: The example you gave about MGs, was almost the perfect opportunity to plot reverse fire considerations, or at least that's how I think of it. What I'm talking about is DON'T FIRE. Let you firing come on the enemy's turn. Here's the rundown: I believe you said he had 3 units and you had a few. If you fire, he will retaliate with every gun (and we know the AI is going to fire three not two times) he has, totaling maybe 8 total guns firing on three fires. 1-to-3 (and it can get as bad as 2-to-8 if you fored with only 2 guns and he fired with 8), not good odds. OTOH, if you do not fire, he will fire on his turn. If Mg fires he gets maybe two shots, you fire back at that unit with two of your own (enemy down in units firing 1-to-2). The total guns firing likely find the enemy down 2-6. No matter what you do, you're better off not firing on your turn. IF you have only one flamethrower, it may be worth using it and not waiting for the enemy turn for opfire, but even that may be a worser tactic.



Charles2222 -> (1/29/2002 10:13:00 AM)

BTW guys, flamers with only two men in the squad would be very stealthy, and I doubt those HTH players would want legions of flamers marching about. However, if the flamers were made 1 size larger, as indeed I think they weren't the most graceful teams in war, they could be perhaps as detectable as a regular sized squad.



mogami -> (1/29/2002 10:44:00 AM)

Hi Charles, Oh I know better then to fire, the problem was my squads disembarked right next to the enemy, this was enough to trigger their op fire (on my poor stacked up men) those MG's slaughtered my guys before I knew they were there. Then when I went to pop smoke to block line of sight from one the others worked me over again sending the few survivours hopping from one mined hex to the next. Of 14 Assault Squads and 4 engineers I had 3 left and they died during the computers turn. Fortunataly this was just a terrible incident to a much larger landing and it did not have a major impact on the battle. These positions were killed later from the rear after they had been taken underfire by naval gunfire and air attack. They caused no further casualties after this one awefull turn. But other MG's continued to knock squads moving only 1 hex at a time to pieces. (you know those 10 men move and 6-7 get hit by a burst-you can't see the MG so a recon team moves up and finds out it just moved next to a SNLF squad and it runs after getting clobbered.-those hide and seek periods where you lose 20-30 men before your motars can suppress the enemy enough for you to be able to move and kill them-then the whole process starts all over again only you have to use a new platoon because the first one is too shot up to go it again...........)



panda124c -> (1/30/2002 1:32:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
BTW guys, flamers with only two men in the squad would be very stealthy, and I doubt those HTH players would want legions of flamers marching about. However, if the flamers were made 1 size larger, as indeed I think they weren't the most graceful teams in war, they could be perhaps as detectable as a regular sized squad.

The size should not change since the reason for two mem was to make them hard to spot so they could sneak up on the target, however decreasing their surviablilty would give the proper effect. This would make them hard to spot but easy to kill once spotted. Make them expensive and you would not end up with hords of FTs.



panda124c -> (1/30/2002 1:41:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Galka:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point. If the FT teams were added on the tail end of a company selection couldn't they have their own category.

Only slightly, the problem is that you can not buy a platoon of Pioneers (German) with an FT(there is no room to add a new unit to the platoon). I do like the idea of adding the FTs as a part of a Hvy Weap Platoon, with the MMGs, to a company. Then you would have to buy a Company of Pioneers in order to get the FTs. I use the Germans as examples because they are the most crowded OOB.
The following assumes that the MMGs are removed from the Platoons.
Engineer Company Heavy Weapons Platoon
3-MMGs
3-FTs Pioneer Company Heavy Weapons Platoon
3-MMGs
3-FTs
3-250/1s



Charles2222 -> (1/30/2002 6:25:00 AM)

pbear: As I see it, stealth does come with a squad with only two men. So much the better that it isn't size 0 like so many scouts. IF, if having them in 2-man squads makes them more dangerous since they're more stelathy, than an ordinary full engineer squad, then would their price be at the present engineer level? Would that be enough points, if they really prove more difficult to detect than regular infantry? It does make me wonder though, if the 2-man team, in attack, would be a better flamer chance/effect than what we see with the full engineer squad, irrespective of stealth.



Alby -> (1/30/2002 6:53:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
BTW guys, flamers with only two men in the squad would be very stealthy, and I doubt those HTH players would want legions of flamers marching about. However, if the flamers were made 1 size larger, as indeed I think they weren't the most graceful teams in war, they could be perhaps as detectable as a regular sized squad.

I made my OOBs to have the flamers with 3 men, some have 4, some 5, depending on country as I had to use whatever Weapon was availabale for their other weapon in that nations oobs. I.E.
kar x 3, M1903 x 3, type99 x 5 ect ect..



V-man -> (1/30/2002 12:01:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tomanbeg:

DO NOT EVER fight an Engineer at 1 hex range.
Yeah, BIG mistake.
T.(who is the only player to ever lose a game because he did something really, really stupid. Everyone else loses because the game is flawed, or their opponent is cheating)[/QUOTE] Oh, I don't know about that. I do dumb stuff ALL the time. I lose a lot.



challenge -> (1/30/2002 10:36:00 PM)

I have a half track (the squad ran and vanished) one hex from an Engineer squad of Velovich's. I figure he'll run out of fuel for the FT any turn now.



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