Early war Dutch primer (Full Version)

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Fallschirmjager -> Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 4:02:22 AM)

If your anything like me playing as the early war Allies if fairly simply except when it comes to how to handle the Dutch. I was answering a question in another forum so I decided to expand it a little bit and provide some tips that I have picked up in my playing.
Alot of this is probably common sense but I will provide it anyways since im bored and helping just one person is worthwhile.
If I get enough of a response then I will clean it up bit and expand it and maybe Spooky and put it on his website.
If everyone thinks I actualy give out some good advice I may keep adding to this as part of a series and eventualy put it together and make a complete Allied stratadgy guide.
Anyways...for now I will present you with my guide on how to manage your early war Dutch assets.



Here is my ordered list of what to save in order of most imporatance.
What to save:

1. Dutch LCU units like base units and Engineer units. Dutch combat units arnt worth a damn so its best to save things that provide aircraft support and can build up your bases.
2. Any airgroups. There are only a few airgroups worth saving but any you want to save will have to be put aboard AK's if you want to haul them to India. I save alot of my Dutch Patrol craft and a few select bomber and fighter units.
3. Fuel. I would rather save finished fuel than oil any day. With oil it has to be shipped back to Japan to be turned into fuel, so its better to save the finished product.
4. Oil. Haul it out of there as much as you can besides whats above.
5. Supplies. Same as above. I would rather save the finished goods than resources.
6. Resources. If you have any room left pick these up and haul them away.

How to save it:

Now here is where it gets complicated. I send most of my Dutch LCU's and airgroups up to India to help out there and in Burma. But India has a steady stream of supply flowing in from Karachi and doesnt need the Fuel, Supply, Oil and Resources.
This is where it takes a little bit of management to pull it off smoothly. You will have transports steaming up to India and cargo ships hauling the rest of the cargo down to Austrailia.
Once you unload in OZ you can go back north and try and pick up more cargo or just send your transports to India.
However once CV's or LBA enter the DEI moving a ship through the area is suicide. So if planes get between your ships and the rest of the Dutch force in India then its best to let them fight the rest of the war aiding Australia.
NEVER send an empty dutch cargo ships anywhere. Thats just a waste of the room. Load it up and then send it. If it gets sunk then of course you lose the points but the Japanese lose whatever was in the ship.
Leaving goods around for them to capture just aids their effort.
Use my list above and stuff your ships to the gills and then send it off to India or Australia.


Tips for surface ships:
Here you can use two different styles. You can use your Dutch surface vessels to activly attack the Japenese.
You will lose alot of ships in this manner so I dont really like doing it.
The second is my style and thats to play turtle. Put all your surface vessels as escorts to your cargo ships and once they are loaded get them the hell out of dodge.
Your surface fleet can be tied in with other vessels later in the war which will give them a fighting chance.
Dutch subs are some of the best in the game, all those islands proivide for lots and lots of ambush spots and choke zones.
Unfortunatly there isnt a port where your subs can reload torpedos so you must go somewhere else for that. But you can dock your subs and suck up a little fuel and supply every turn if you want.
Save your surface fleet to fight another day instead of battering them against the IJN early in the game. Let them provide ASW and AA support to your cargo fleets.

A few last tips: These are things I thought of while I was writing the above.
On turn 1 expand ALL of your Dutch bases. At first this sounds stupid but here in my reasoning.
Your bases wont actualy have time to ever expand so you wont be helping out the Japanese.
The main reason for doing this is it sucks up supply!
Every unit of supply consumed before the Japanese get their hands on it is a tiny little victory in the early war.
Later when the Japanese are on your doorstep you can turn expansion off and save the supply for any sieges that might occur.

I mentioned this above but I will go back into it in a little more depth. Dont EVER send a cargo ship away without its full load. Even if you know its going to get pasted by aircraft the next turn do not send it away. I would much rather it suck up 1000 more supply and then go down the gloomy deep then sail away and leave 1000 supply for the Japanese to use. The whole point of the take over of the DEI is for resources. Your job as the Dutch is to deny them as much of this resource as you can. You are not going to be able to hold on to your bases so the next best option is to haul away as much of the usefull items as you can while perserving your combat surface fleet. A 100% full ship at the bottom of the ocean is better than a 50% full ship steaming away.

There are lots of scattered AK's in Australia at the beginiging of the war. Since it will be a while until you can secure a supply line to America its best to gather these up in 1's and 2's and sail them up to the DEI and start gathering what you can and sailing it back. Do this as many times as you can until Japanese airpower makes the runs no longer possible.
There are LOTS of bases in the DEI. Alot of them have no troops in them but have 1-3 k of supply or fuel. Send out AK's in ones and twos and collect from these bases and haul it back to Australia. Use your AP's too since it will be a while until you need them to haul troops around.


With a bit of good management and a bit of luck you can make one of the greatest planned withdrawls in military history. You will have left your LCU's in key areas to delay the Japanese invading units. Key airgroups will have been left to provide CAP and score the occasional lucky hit on a Japanese surface vessel. And most importantly you will have hauled away key supplies to bolster other areas and denied its use to the Japanese.
There is no worse feeling as the Japanese than taking a base with a large amount of oil and resources and finding out not only is it damaged but there isnt near enough supplies on hand to repair the damage. They will have to send back to Japan for the supplies and you will have really fouled up their entire time table.
If you can do this you will be well on your way victory.

Hope this helps some.



esteban -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 4:13:32 AM)

Oz already produces more resources than she needs, and so do India and the U.S. What you really need to grab is oil, if you can, since both India and Oz have oil deficits. Grabbing resources should be seen as taking stuff away so the Japanese don't get it.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 4:17:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

Oz already produces more resources than she needs, and so do India and the U.S. What you really need to grab is oil, if you can, since both India and Oz have oil deficits. Grabbing resources should be seen as taking stuff away so the Japanese don't get it.


I dont see it that way.

Supplies and fuel are finished goods.
Resources and oil require having to be picked up and taken back to Japan for processing which takes time and merchant shipping.
I would much rather take away 10000 supply or fuel than 10000 resources or oil.



vontiger -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 4:20:29 AM)

I thought u need oil and resources for production?



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 4:22:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vontiger

I thought u need oil and resources for production?


You do.

But you both are missing the point.
What India and Austrailia needs are SECONDARY to giving away free fuel and supply to Japan.
Karachi gets more than enough supply and fuel which makes HI in India only marginaly usefull and you can ship enough from America to take care of OZ.
Getting out the recources and oil is less important than getting out the fuel and supplies.



esteban -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 4:34:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

Oz already produces more resources than she needs, and so do India and the U.S. What you really need to grab is oil, if you can, since both India and Oz have oil deficits. Grabbing resources should be seen as taking stuff away so the Japanese don't get it.


I dont see it that way.

Supplies and fuel are finished goods.
Resources and oil require having to be picked up and taken back to Japan for processing which takes time and merchant shipping.
I would much rather take away 10000 supply or fuel than 10000 resources or oil.


I agree on the supplies, though there are not a lot of places in the SRA that start with lots of excess supplies. Fuel is a different deal. I would rather evacuate the oil than the fuel. Oil can be turned into supply AND fuel in Australia, for the defense of the supply line. also, there are not generally big supplies of fuel lying around in the SRA at the start, though after a few months, places like Palembang generate a fairly hefty amount as an oil by-product.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 4:47:14 AM)

I still see it as imposing more of a delay on the Japanese player to force them to ship raw oil back to Japan for it to be converted.



esteban -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 5:08:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I still see it as imposing more of a delay on the Japanese player to force them to ship raw oil back to Japan for it to be converted.


Yep, but the oil is converted into more than fuel. It is also converted into supplies and heavy industry points to build nasty things to use against you.

But I agree that it is kind of a nuisance to ship fuel back to the SRA, from Japan. However, unless it is the early game, or the Allies are attacking north from Darwin, there is probably enough fuel in the SRA for normal operations, just from the oil production by-products and the bit of heavy industry you have around the SRA.



Platoonist -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 5:10:37 AM)

Thanks for posting this. Just started scen 15 and have been scratching my head as what to do with those boys in the wooden shoes. At least their submarines are armed with a reliable torpedo.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 5:17:42 AM)

Fallschirmjager,

Good post, I just added this to the allied thread in the war room. Nice to see some other Allied Fan Boys post strategy. [8D]
If only we could convert Mogami away from the darkside....[:D]



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 8:57:52 PM)

Bump

Ill give this one final go around in case anyone else wants to take a look.



UncleBuck -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 9:14:59 PM)

Good Idea Falls,

I find that Sorebaja, Kendari and Batavia all work well as Dutch sub re-supply points. I also drag the supplies to the bases in DEI I plan to make a stand instead of dragging it back to OZ or India. The 12K in supply you find just around Palembang or Batavia make a nice cushion as they fort to 9. It also cuts the transit time for the AK's and they can make more trips :) I only keep what I think I need to evac planes and move supplies around in Northern OZ and DEI. The rest I send down to Brisbane to do ferry runs to the coastal cities there and to prime the moving element of my West coast to Pago-Pago to Auckland to Sydney Resource run. Some of the smaller vessels can also serve as theater transports for Fiji/Samoa region. I build supply in Suva and Pago and then build up Noumea Atoll and Canton Island from there.

I try to save as many Air units as I can. Even the short ranged recon planes. They eventually upgrade to F-5A's. They also allow me to use the AK's early to just get them out of the way and stop using up valuable AV support values. I do agree with the concept of denying them finished goods. I would rather them need to convert the oil in place to use it, or ship it back to Japan where I get to take pot shots with my torpedoes on the whole route.

UB



Mr.Frag -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 9:24:14 PM)

A couple things to note that I strongly disagree with:

(a) pulling out your engineers and support grunts!

The odds of having large amounts of damage done to the base when captured goes way up with engineers present. To give you an good example: Palembang is 700 Oil ... without engineers there, it might take 50 or no damage. With engineers there that 700 could be trashed down to 250. Each point of damage done is 1000 supply that Japan has to ship there to do repairs. It is also that much oil that is NOT being produced each turn. Lets take 50% damage as an example:

700 / 2 = 350 = 350,000 supples + 350 DAYS of reduced production. All that at the cost of some engineers??? How can you pass up that one???

Now, moving any support groups from non-production hexes to production hexes is another story, but you sound like you are thinking bail them out to save them. They are meaningless except for their destruction abilities in the overall scheme of things.

(b) Building up the base

Again, rather pointless ... you are better off *moving* all the troops OUT of the base hex which will draw the supply with them into their current hex. If you want to build, the only thing to build is the fortification as it is lost when the base is captured (you burned supply for no net gain - valid)

(c) Running away

I approached the game this way the first 20 or so games ... then i decided to see just how much abuse i could cause by sticking around to the last bullet. I found that by fighting to the death that I could stretch the SRA for a good couple of months resulting in multiple convoys of supplies and troops and fuel being brought over from the USA to Oz.

(d) Ship use

This one is a bit tougher ... there is a risk/reward ratio here ... the longer you can keep them without loosing them great, but this is a war and ships not used are useless. You have enough combat ships to cause some serious harm used properly and combined with the Brits from Singapore, it is a strong fleet that can stand up to anything other then KB.

By keeping this threat in the SRA, you are pretty much FORCING KB to come to you, controlling Japan's actions. As I have learned and am quite happy about, land based air power is far more threatening to CV's then in UV. You can take on CV's with those poor dutch air units. You have a fair number of torpedo bombers there that can take *any* ship and send it to the bottom. As you are holding out, you are also denying fuel stockpiles and using the fuel yourself. If you manage to tag KB and send it running, you now have a powerful surface fleet in the area that can not be threatened.



benway9 -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 9:39:30 PM)

i have to agree with frag here. i am finding that making a stand with the Dutch can cause the jap much heartache. the more time he takes to slug it out thru the DEI, the more time to build up in Oz and prepare for the counterattacks beginning mid-late 42. as you are using up the fuel and supplies fighting the japs (leaving less and less for them to take back home), you are wasting time, his supplies and fuel (less for later), and you are going to destroy more as he comes calling on each of your bases with engineers on them. seems to have many pluses with few minuses.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 9:43:06 PM)

a.
Good point. I should of stressed pulling out the engineer units out of bases with little to no resource or oil production.
Combat LCU's do have some engineer units folded in with them that will damage facilities.

b.
DEI has very few roads. Your units get fatigued and it taked weeks and even months to march between bases. I have found that the Japanese will land and caputure a base leaving your units marching between it and thus cut it off. Supply flow at a molassas pace on trail hexes so if you pull out all the units you can be stuck with alot of supply at an empty base and the Japanese capture it all.
I find buidling at the base gets rids of at least a little of that supply which is better than none at all.

c.
I strongly disagree here (duh [:'(]) but this is probably just conflicting playing styles.
I am a fan of living to fight another day. Backed up by British and American units Dutch units have a fighting chance at survival.
Leaving things around is just giving the Japanese hundreds of free points for little gain. Your air units wont do a whole hell of alot to delay them as they are cut through like ripe wheat.

d.
Same as above. Once land and sea air units come into play your Dutch navy will be ruthlessly crushed without being able to do a whole lot to hurt the enemy.
Your just giving free points to the Japanese and free experience to air crews.
I have found its just not worth leaving your surface units around unless they are supporting your evac effort.

Any smart player will form two CV units and leave one on 100% cap and then sail it into the DEI and clean out any air units. Then the second CV units comes in with escort planes to escort its naval attack planes.
But that last bit is a free nugget of Japanese stratadgy [;)]


Different playing styles lead to different ideas on warfare. Mine above is just one.
I advocate hauling everything usefull out of the DEI and leaving behind just enough combat LCU's with enough supply to delay the Japanese grabbing the major bases.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 9:47:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benway9
seems to have many pluses with few minuses.


A good Japanese player will escort everything he sends in. You will damage few if any of his surface assests and he will methodiacly pick away and crush your Dutch units with little loss to himself. You give up almost a 1000 free points if you leave everything in theater.
I can see the delay factor but I guess it comes down to whether or not its worth trading away all those points to hold up the Japanese for a few weeks up to a month or two.



DrewMatrix -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 9:51:02 PM)

My 2 cents:

I do pull out engineers. Not from the big bases (ie not from Soerabaja or Palembang) but from smaller bases. I think (without much experience in the mid or late game) these will help me build bases in the SWPAC/SOPAC area earlier.

I use my A/C very aggresively. I try to use them against IJ AK/AP/TK units (mostly by basing them where they can hit transports or hit bases the IJ have taken in the SRA but not in an area where they waste effort against tough-to-sink CAs or BBs. I move the A/C around a lot to acheive this.

As the Dutch Air units fight they get smaller and I frequently merge them. You can be pretty aggressive keeping them forward since you can always falll back one Airfield and still hit the IJ the same turn. But I do try to keep an escape route to north Oz or to SE Asia. When I need to get them out I fly them out, I don't use transports. The Dutch have several LB units with 65-70 Exp by 1 Jan 42.

I feel that Oil/Fuel is more important to steal from under the IJ than Resources. I use AO/TK to take out oil (only they can, right?) and use AKs to take out fuel.

I use what ships are in the area (Prince of Wales, Repulse, dome CLs and a number of DDs) in small packets (the captial ships maybe in a 10-12 ship TF but the others maybe in 5-6 ship TFs) trying to mug IJ transports (by either being on react or being close so I can rush to any SRA base they start to land troops) but try to keep them out of heavy IJ air superiority zones.

That last rules out using the ships in the Singapore area, but they can be used around S. Borneo/Sulawesi/Java for a while. The ships have to flee before the A/C run for it.

I do _not_ try to save ABDA or PI combat units (only engineers and A/C).



Bradley7735 -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 9:58:40 PM)

Don't expand the port and airfields. (partial expansion can stay with the invader). Just build forts. They'll build faster if you don't do all 3. And they will suck up as much supply while building. And they will help you last longer once the invasions begin.



Kwik E Mart -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:01:03 PM)

This topic raises an interesting question....given the squabbling among the ABDA command at the time, is it realistic to assume the Dutch would agree to mass movement of their resources and oil? Does anyone have any historical basis for this strategy? Was it planned or attempted? As for the surfact units, the willingness of the Allies to contest the conquest of the SRA with a surface fleet and the almost total annihilation of said fleet in the Battle of Java Sea (27-28 Feb) makes me believe defending the resources was the decision at the time.

Just curious...



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:03:20 PM)

Please note my tips are for PBEM and not against the AI.
The AI is stupid and be be kicked around like a toy poodle.

A good PBEM player will escort every transport TF and provide plenty of air cover.
Once that happens you will get very very few hits and your aircraft will just be shredded day in and day out. Your surface fleets will go up against escorts and you may trade damage if your lucky.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:07:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

This topic raises an interesting question....given the squabbling among the ABDA command at the time, is it realistic to assume the Dutch would agree to mass movement of their resources and oil? Does anyone have any historical basis for this strategy? Was it planned or attempted? As for the surfact units, the willingness of the Allies to contest the conquest of the SRA with a surface fleet and the almost total annihilation of said fleet in the Battle of Java Sea (27-28 Feb) makes me believe defending the resources was the decision at the time.

Just curious...


When Amsterdam calls me and asks whats going on then I will worry about it...[;)]

Seriously, I think the Dutch though they could hold onto there empire. What made them think that is beyond me since there was no chance in hell of them holding onto any of it.


There probably isnt a historical basis but I dont really care. Hindsight is 20/20 and im trying to do better than historicaly and fighting like they did in WW2 wont do anything to help that.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:09:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Don't expand the port and airfields. (partial expansion can stay with the invader). Just build forts. They'll build faster if you don't do all 3. And they will suck up as much supply while building. And they will help you last longer once the invasions begin.


Japanese player will cancel expansion at 80% of these bases since they are useless to him. They only need about 5 baes in the DEI to hold complete control over it. Its an out of the way are where they will station a few air units and thats about it.
They probably wont keep a strong surface fleet there so major ports arnt all that important.



DrewMatrix -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:14:57 PM)

quote:

A good PBEM player will escort every transport


The AI (against me, anyhow) is escorting the transport TFs. Not with Cruisers (except for one big invasion in Malaya) but wth PC/ML/MSWs.

For Mr. Frag, mostly:

Can the AI (Will the AI) (does they AI need) a boost in the amount of escorts given to Transport TFs in "non-rear-areas" (anywhere the enemy has LB Air/bases)?

I get the general impression (real life, not from the game) that not having enough escorts was a big problem for the IJ. They run out of DDs and then can't escort Combat nor Transport TFs adequately.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:19:19 PM)

I also think that a valid concern/question is how badly is the AI affected by moving out resources and leaving engineers to destroy industry when the base is captured? Is it something that the AI can not recover from? I have yet to make it past March in any game I have played so far.



maddog0606 -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:19:41 PM)

I have read in some books that after Singapore fell ABDA started to fall apart also. The English general in charge wanted to send all British ships/troops/air units back to India. He saw no reason for British troops to hang around any longer. Australia was concerned with Australia. The US had no troops and only a few destroyers (and maybe a light cruiser or two) and the commander of the ships told the Dutch commander that he would stick around has long has possible and then flee to Australia. The Dutch high command wanted to stick with the DEI because it had been part of their empire for about 200 years so has far has they were concerned it was Dutch land they were fighting for.

So to make a long story short the Dutch would have never sent any of their troops, recourses, or supplies to India has long has there was even a slight chance for them to hold on to DEI. And by the time they had figured the end had come it was to late to leave because the Japanese fleet had bottled em all up on Java.



Toro -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:20:16 PM)

My stance on the oil vs fuel. I prefer to nab the oil. As noted above, it's used to produce more than fuel, but also to produce ships, aircraft, troops, etc. Running out of oil is very bad. Although, I do like the idea of pulling fuel with AKs (haven't done that yet). Also a good note: oil left alone is also left for the Japanese to take back home. Sure, they have to ship it, but that's expected. When they do, it runs their economy (something that has to be shut down).

Like most of you, I pull base forces, but only from non-production site bases. Maybe it's a left-over from UV, but I always found I needed more base forces in that game... And, those base forces from the airforce are much less to convert to another HQ than USN base forces.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:22:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

quote:

A good PBEM player will escort every transport


The AI (against me, anyhow) is escorting the transport TFs. Not with Cruisers (except for one big invasion in Malaya) but wth PC/ML/MSWs.



I dont really consider those escorts [:'(]
Maybe against subs but thats about it.
They are no match even for a DD and they provide very little AA support.

As the IJN you just have to use bigger TF's so that you can escort them all. This means more trips but less of your ships in Davey Jones locker.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:25:43 PM)

If you read the current AARs, it seems like a lot of Japanese players do the same thing as the AI. Which is they do not have enough warships to cover and guard all the convoys, thus leaving some unprotected. Thus with people coming out and saying that the slow expansion tactic for the Japanese is the best approach.



Toro -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:36:12 PM)

I haven't played the Japanese myself yet (though I'm itching to, soon), but I think a rapid expansion is what I'd do.

Why: it seems essential to push the Allies out of the SRA arena, allowing me to control their points of approach. Sure, many supply/cargo TFs won't be covered, but most may not require coverage if the Allies are limited to sub ops in the SRA. More important to get the oil/resources and establish a relatively stable front line AWAY from the oil/resource sources.

Anyway, I'll know more when I try it...



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Early war Dutch primer (8/4/2004 10:37:17 PM)

Toro,

For your reading pleasure. [:D]

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D678415



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