Another film thread... (Full Version)

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Belisarius -> Another film thread... (1/27/2002 9:28:00 PM)

Slight redundancy warning here, but I couldn't find the original thread... (where's the search function??) A while ago we discussed the 1977 Sam Pekinpah film "Cross of iron" as being a good one. I totally agree, it's one of the better WWII films I've seen, void of much of the 'Hollywoodism' seen in e.g. Saving Private Ryan and Enemy at the Gates...very much recommended. Anyway, since I 'borrowed' it from a friend's HD, I seem to have missed the last 7 or so minutes! So - how does it end? I could see as far as Captain Stransky having severe trouble reloading his MP-40, and Sgt. Steiner laughing at him. Then what? Another thing that struck me was the MG-42 sound. It sounded waaay to slow in my ears. And were those real T-34's? They looked good.



asgrrr -> (1/27/2002 11:44:00 PM)

Heheh, you didn't miss anything, that's how it ended - not at all Those tanks were T-34/85s - six months early, but what the hell...



wulfir -> (1/27/2002 11:50:00 PM)

If I’m not mistaken the young Russian taken prisoner in the beginning and later killed in no mans land during the (first) Russian assault appears for a second blasting away with a ppsh. Don’t know if that is to symbolise Steiner going mad or something. (?) About the tanks, I think they were the real thing, Yugoslavian army equipment, even if this version of the T34 might not have been available at the time the movie portraits.
Personally I’m kind of looking forward to the Band of Brothers series that is to be shown in Sweden some time soon (thank you TV4) and I have some hopes for the coming movies Windtalkers and Deep Blue World - even though the latter seems to come complete with the ww2 movie type love story.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (1/28/2002 12:37:00 AM)

I have heard nothing but glowing praise for Band of Brothers and even if Saving Private Ryan was a Hollywood film, who am I to slag a film that won an award from the veteran mob. Its being claimed as better than Saving Private Ryan (so predictably I am hoping my buddy hurries up and gets me the copy of the series he promised me eh). Its unfortunate that the real Ryan was British, but I guess Ryan going ashore at Omaha was more tragic than Sword Gold or Juno would have been. Ever look at a map guys? we Canadians went the furthest inland on D-Day, and we later encountered the Hitler Youth Panzer division and kicked some butt. Still I quite rather enjoyed watching the horrified looks the second time I saw it in the theatres (I actually spent a few minutes watching all the wankers sit in stunned silence). 30 minutes of movie patron getting perhaps a bit closer to what warfare might actually look like (not the crap they were served in that piece of **** called Pearl Harbour). Pity Speilberg couldnt fill the theatres with an appropriate level of smell. Films today though seem cursed to be watched by a largely uneducated audience. None of them know what really happened. How are they to know? Answer is pure and simple. We need to be in their face with it. I have read commentary in publications like Dragon magazines from years gone by (Dragon is the flagship for the rolegaming industry for ya non rolegamers out there). As well as comments from other hobby based publications such as wargaming.
Common thread is a lot of fans often voice regrets about the fact the common schmuck "just doesnt understand the facts" about their hobby and how its maligned (or just grossly misrepresented). It wont do any good blathering on here about any issue that has any importance in the real world though. Its why I myself mouth off about what vexes me in places where the common schmuck will see it.
Art of War might be fun for the wallahs in there, but John Q Public doesnt know those doofuses even exist (its possibly a good thing they dont know they exist though).
I was just recently exppressing my view in Blockbuster Video the other day, that the 50 plus copies of Pearl Harbour was an ineffective way to sell what were best used as blank cassettes. I have a wonderous collection of war movies in my collection. And true, not all our gems I guess. But I have not bought anything much in the last 20 years. Thats cause they are no longer war movies per se. I refuse to call what is often an "action film" a "war movie". Nothing wrong with "action films" beyond the simple fact an apple is an apple and an orange isnt.



Carey -> (1/28/2002 2:15:00 AM)

I live in England and saw every episode of the 10 part series of Band Of Brothers. Each episode was an hour long and every minute of it was spectacular. the series never had a dull moment and I was amazed and horrified that this was a true story of the men in Easy Company, 101st airbourne. Like Saving Private Ryan it was made by Spielburg and Tom Hanks and they made a winning team. It was very popular over here in England and is VERY good.



Belisarius -> (1/28/2002 3:31:00 AM)

So you're saying that TV4 has bought in Band of Brothers, Wulfir? Can't wait... Thanks, and to you too, Penetrator. If that's the ending, it's sort of in line with the rest of the film...



wulfir -> (1/28/2002 4:07:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius:
So you're saying that TV4 has bought in Band of Brothers, Wulfir? Can't wait...
I read it from their hompage. They praise it to high heavens at TV4 though they haven't specified when we can expect it to start. Can't be too soon... http://www.tv4.se



asgrrr -> (1/28/2002 5:04:00 AM)

Band of Brothers is playing in Iceland now, actually episode 5 ended 5 minutes ago. Very much in the spirit of Ryan, and that says quite a lot. The battle scenes are spectacular, and the equipment, especially german tanks, is incredibly good. Looks to me like the majority of german AFV's shown are authentic, many even in running condition. Like in Ryan, many appear to be pushed by hidden tractors, but not all.
That said, it is time for nitpicking. The parlance seems a bit too modern, and somehow the writing could be better. The characters are shallow and unconvincing. An excessive rationality seems to color them, only broken by somewhat stereotypical or even corny character flaws. Disciplinary action has been absent so far. The camera work is not entirely to my taste. A fast moving, unstable camera can capture volatile situations well, but gets tiresome in the long run. There are many battle scenes where a stable camera would have been better. There are many poignant scenes, but the series seems to fall short of revealing the true horror of war. I have still to see a dead civilian for one thing, or wounded soldiers caught in the crossfire. Personally I felt Market-Garden was given a rather short shrift, I seem to remember the 101. fought some pretty close run defensive battles during that operation. Maybe that was to give room for Bastogne, which starts in next episode.
But these are minor points. I expect these comments will connect me to a lightning rod, but they are my subjective opinions, I don't expect everyone to agree.



Jody -> (1/28/2002 5:18:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Its unfortunate that the real Ryan was British, but I guess Ryan going ashore at Omaha was more tragic than Sword Gold or Juno would have been. Ever look at a map guys? we Canadians went the furthest inland on D-Day, and we later encountered the Hitler Youth Panzer division and kicked some butt.
Hi ya Les, I am in the Process of reading a book called "Steel Inferno " by a retired British Major General and it about the 1st SS panzer Corps in Normandy which was the 1st SS Panzer Div LAH (Libstandarte Adolf Hitler) and the 12th SS panzer Grenadier Div HJ (Hitler Jugend )(Average age 18 years old) and I am sorry M8 but the Canadians got their Butt kicked in the first month and it was only the Allied Air Superiority that stopped the Germans from throwing the Allies into the Channel. The Allies were 25 Days behind the projected times for their objectives and from what this Author say's it was the 1st SS panzer Corps that held up the allies Canadian & British. And from the figures kicked some serious butt to the tune of 15-1 kill ratio. Allso the Allied Commanders were hopless and did not have a feel for the ground and the units they were facing. And I thought Ryan was A yank or so I have read The Eel [ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Jody ] [ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Jody ]



V-man -> (1/30/2002 12:25:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Its unfortunate that the real Ryan was British, but I guess Ryan going ashore at Omaha was more tragic than Sword Gold or Juno would have been. Ever look at a map guys?
Ahem. The film was, according to the bonus stuff that was included in teh special edition, on PVT Bob Niland, of the US Army. V-man



asgrrr -> (2/7/2002 6:16:00 PM)

Awwwwrrr man.... They showed episode 6 of Band of brothers (Bastogne) last sunday over here, and man did it suck! My brain still hurts from watching it. I was waiting for some tough fighting, but instead got some wiener running around all day looking for scissors! Veeeeery interesting... Then the scissor hunt gets entwined into some half hearted, corny romance story, and by the time the scissor wiener pulls out her headcloth to treat a wounded someone, I walked out. Really. A pointer to a good film about fighting in snow: Talvisota. On a related subject, why is it that a certain school of filmmaking (you all know which one) usually heaps millions upon millions on pyrotechnics, special effects and big name stars, and then hires some high school dropout to a weekend job for writing the script? Jeeez...



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (2/7/2002 8:46:00 PM)

Hmmm well aside from the fact I was at the time of the event just a thought heheh. But I have a film called the Real Private Ryan (who is supposedly British). I guess the documentary could be lying. As for the Canadians getting whipped hmmm. Well we moved furthest inland day one, that much is known (according to all my maps, but thats all I have to go on). I guess the maps could be fake hehe. But they only took some terrain that had no significance to D+3 I wont say anyone enjoyed fighting the 1st or 12th SS (that much is a given). it was the veteran 21st that caused the most grief though.
If I am not mistaken though, only 6 members of the 12th walked away from Falaise (you wont get that dedication or loss rate often). I have always shuddered when I play Whittman's Gamble. No one is going to say (me included) that fighting the SS in Normandy was a "walk in the sun". I have a copy of Avalon Hills game Longest Day. Best way to depict that gruesome campaign. Only good game I know out there for cardboard (for this event, and that statement includes the computer realm). 5'x5' map 10k plus counters (all unique) and a brutal demostration of "attrition". Even when I cheat on the landing and recreate historical conditions deliberately (and that cost me hours after hours and quite a lot of text books), only the Canadian units get very far inland, and it takes massive amounts of perfectly wrangled conditions through the game mechanics to make that happen (so just getting there sure was something in itself). In game terms Utah is easy but Omaha, man what a slaughter. Gold is the traffic jam from hell. And Sword cant take Caen on D+Plus 1 (or D+10)even with intentional cheating. Makes me wonder where Montgomery's head was. But I have never thought Monty was deserving of his fame.
Alemein was achieved on the shoulders of several other British generals before him. Sicily was a joke, he botched a realistic time table in Normandy, was the reason Market Garden was a bad idea, and made an over fussed with Rhine crossing (that Patton beat him too anyway). Ahh yes I am not a supporter of Monty eh, or not the image 50+ years later that he was a genius.



Belisarius -> (2/7/2002 11:48:00 PM)

One attribute that pretty much sums up Monty's leadership style is: cautious.
If he had luxury of choice, he never went into battle without having MAJOR advantage in materiel and manpower. (one figure I heard was about 5-1 ) Compared with Rommel, who took just about every opportunity he could spot, they're truly opposites. What if Montgomery had Rommel's leadership characteristics and Rommel had Monty's? I'd say the DAK would've been out of Africa looong before El Alamein...perhaps with a higher casualty number for the 8th Army.



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