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IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/15/2004 3:41:34 AM)
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ORIGINAL: Von Rom
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ORIGINAL: IronDuke
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ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames
So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then[X(] And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!
What's making me smile, is that it seems Farago writes fiction about NAZIs on the side, if this Bormann stuff is anything to go by. Reams of material in the Patton thread were flung headlong at Mr Whiting for this very reason. Oh, the irony of it all...
The Bormann thing illustrates how conspiracy theory develops. There was no body which means that all sorts of fantasy becomes possible. Beevor gives quite a concise account of the escape attempts. He states Axmann split off from Bormann and Stumpfegger but was forced to retrace his steps, and came across the two bodies. Ian Kershaw states they committed suicide, stating they were found in 1972 and that dental and pathological examination proved who they were almost beyond doubt. Since I'm not aware of anyone tracing Stumpfegger after the war, either, and we have an eye witness who placed the bodies at the spot they were found, I think it's pretty conclusive.
Blaschke was Hitler's dentist and I don't have a problem with his memory. I suspect he wouldn't have had thousands of patients. He'd have had Hitler (and possibly) a select list of leading NAZIs (was he Bormann's dentist, or did he merely claim to see the records?). I think he looked after Eva Braun's teeth. If he'd had thousands of patients, then fair enough, but to have just a handful, doesn't give me problems if a qualified dentist is recognising them again years later. I don't take Wiesenthal's opinion as evidence. Unless he can be shopwn to have examined it closely and been a qualified forensic scientist or anthropologist or whatever, then I don't buy it. How can we?
Robin Cross relates that the bodies were found with glass remains in their mouth, apparently the remains of cyanide capsules. I think this confirms it if true as when you add it to everything else, the identification seems pretty solid.
All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke
Heheh
Yup nothing like critical reading, eh, ID? [;)]
You read a brief snippet from a website, and you swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. . .
You, too, believe that a dentist can identify 30 year old dentures from records he saw 30 years ago FROM MEMORY. [8|]
Man, you guys are a salesman's dream come true. . .
BTW, I have a bridge I want to sell you. . .
I am amazed at what you will swallow when it suits your purpose.
When I was a child I believed in the Tooth Fairy - but then I wised up. . .
Did any of you ever stop to think that the West German Gov't rushed this "identification" to close the book on Bormann? That they would accept anything to sweep it under the carpet? Especially, if Bormann's cronies living in exile and in Germany placed pressure on key officials to close the case?
Please tell me you aren't this naive. . .
Oh dear...
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Heheh
Yup nothing like critical reading, eh, ID? [;)]
You read a brief snippet from a website, and you swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. . .
What website? Are you making up straw man arguments of mine to knock down? The three works I referred to above are:
Anthony Beevor:[i] Berlin: The Downfall 1945
Robin Cross: Fallen Eagle
Ian Kershaw: Hitler: Nemesis 1936-1945.
Beevor is very well respected; Kershaw's biography of Hitler is the current standard text (a mighty fine historical work it is too); Cross has a good number of respected works on WWII military history under his belt. If you are saying I am naive, then it is these works you should be criticising. Instead, you erroneously suggest I have gotten it all from a website. Do you think people can not see this? Why do you do this?
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You, too, believe that a dentist can identify 30 year old dentures from records he saw 30 years ago FROM MEMORY. [8|]
I am happy to accept it as corroborating evidence from a Dentist who had only a handful of clients 30 years before. I am happy to accept it as corroborating evidence when we have a witness who saw the Corpse minutes after death; a corpse subsequently dug up in the correct spot; a forensic examination of the remains that showed they matched Bormann's; the remains of cyanide capsules in the mouth when we know that a number of capsules were floating about the bunker at this time. What more do you need?
You mentioned Mossad earlier. Their record over the years, albeit bloody, has been very good. Do you honestly believe that if an investigative reporter could track Bormann down, that they couldn't? Why was there no snatch operation as there was with Eichmann?
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Man, you guys are a salesman's dream come true. . .
BTW, I have a bridge I want to sell you. . .
I am amazed at what you will swallow when it suits your purpose.
When I was a child I believed in the Tooth Fairy - but then I wised up. . .
I won't validate this sort of stuff by replying.
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Did any of you ever stop to think that the West German Gov't rushed this "identification" to close the book on Bormann? That they would accept anything to sweep it under the carpet? Especially, if Bormann's cronies living in exile and in Germany placed pressure on key officials to close the case?
What gets me is why we are the naive ones? Consider what you have to believe to believe what you do about Bormann?
1. Artur Axmann lied when he said he saw Bormann's Corpse.
2. Both Bormann and Stumpfegger subsequently evaded capture in one of the most dangerous cities in the world at that time.
3. A body was found (or deliberately placed?) at the right spot for the builders to find which either
A: was somebody else's who just happened to have similiar dimensions to Bormann or
B: was deliberately left to cover Bormann's tracks meaning someone found a corpse that closely resembled Bormann's and placed it there.
4. A Dentist (who had only a handful of people's teeth to remember) lied or misidentified the teeth.
5. A Pathologist falsified his evidence.
6. The remains of a glass phial of cyanide were placed into the mouth before the bodies were buried. Or, the two bodies left to be identified as Bormann's were killed using this peculiar suicide method. (This is most revealing. If you wanted to cover up that this wasn't Bormann, in a city covered with trigger happy Russians, you could have done anything to the corpses to hinder identification, and not had to get the Pathologist and Dentist in on the conspiracy (the fewer people in on the conspiracy the less likely it is to be discovered).
7. Bormann subsequently made it to South America.
8. Bormann subsequently evaded capture by Mossad and Wiesenthal but didn't evade capture by a crusading Journalist.
Now, all I have to do is believe that Axmann (the eye witness) told the truth. I also only have to believe that the body identified by Pathology (ignore the Dentist if you don't like him) as being Bormann's, discovered in the spot where the eye witness said Bormann fell, was in fact Bormann. This is not a huge leap. I have an eye witness who places the body at the scene, a body found at the scene, and a forensic identification of the body from the scene as Bormann. This is the sort of evidence that stands up in a court of law, yet here I am dismissed as being naive for believing it.
Oh the irony....
Regards,
IronDuke
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