Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (Full Version)

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SiTheSly -> Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 9:27:39 PM)

Has anyone seen a Japanese planes date available decrease by building a lot of them in the r & d mode?

The reason I ask is I've had the Ki 43 IIa building in the high 90's for two months now and the date is still Jan 1943.

Do I have to get the production over 100 per month?



PlacidDragon -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 9:34:40 PM)

I belive that you have to have over 100 in production, yes (even then it takes a while before the month changes, but eventually, it does change). Its not a "cheat" tho, i've only ever been able to push an aircraft one month ahead of its original date. I might not have invested enough R&D into it, but Japan is struggling with its industry as it is :)



SiTheSly -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 9:38:08 PM)

Thanks - I'll push it over 100 - it's at 98 now and hope I get more then a month off the time for the massive effort I'm putting in. I wish I'd chosen a better plane now - oh well.



Xargun -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 10:02:12 PM)

Don't rely on that over 100 advice either.. Many people on here have done tests and have put 1000s of points into a new design only to see it advance by 1 or 2 months. You CAN advance new designs, but its harder to do and you'll be lucky if you knock more than a month off the arrival time.

Xargun



shoevarek -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 10:56:14 PM)

I have been investing in Ki84 and A7 development for 6 months and don't see the results yet. I hope that you are not right when you mention about 1000s of points and only 1 month gained.

It is middle 1942 and I broke the magic number of 30 only few months ago. I have 1 Ki84 factory with current production rate reaching 60 and few others with production less than 10. From this point my research points should start to building up and accelerate but still to reach 100 points I need more or around 1 month. Availability date of Ki84 is Aug 44 and I think at the very best I could move it 1 year closer. I am talking here about what seems to me the perfect conditions - at the start we get KI84 factory with 300 something points, I stopped production of every plane type I don't intend to use or I am not proficient in using (recons, transports, planes I have a lot in the pool - especially bombers), stopped research of the planes that will be available in 1942-43 anyway, halted merchant shipyards, all submarines, BBs, some AKs. In short total commitment to the research of the best possible fighters.

My A7 Reppu research rate is around 80 but this is not the whole picture - I have many factories I converted at the beginning of the game but only one produces at rate more over 10. The accumulated research points are hard or imposible to even forecast - if i am lucky i can have 100 points or if not i can have 0. Only after one of the factories reaches 30 i will be sure I make any progress.

But then, can I be really sure?? When you say about 1 month of gain I just loose the hope. No it can't be true, nooo... noooooooo... [:D]



Tanaka -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 11:17:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Don't rely on that over 100 advice either.. Many people on here have done tests and have put 1000s of points into a new design only to see it advance by 1 or 2 months. You CAN advance new designs, but its harder to do and you'll be lucky if you knock more than a month off the arrival time.

Xargun



hmmm what's the point then? a month or two will not do you any good...and then you have to wait for them to actually be produced....



shoevarek -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 11:31:07 PM)

quote:

Do I have to get the production over 100 per month?


Reading the manual I undertood it the different way. In my opinion you need 100 development points not a 100 production rate. Development point is obtained every time new aircraft would be build if the factory was actually producing not researching. So with best luck even with the 1 point rate you can gain the development point every day making 30-31 a month. But sometimes with bad luck having rate 28 you can get nothing. So to be at the safe side and to make any predictions you need to have the factory capable of building at least 29-30 planes.

According to manual the formula is (Rate * Random Number(1 to 30))/30.

There are few catches however

1) The formula applies to single location/factory. You can have overall rate 90 but if this rate is a sum of few factories building/researching below 28 rate you still can get 0 development points.
2) For the plane to be built you need engines and HI points. As the Intelligence screen does not display information about real number of planes built/researched you can only make assumptions. Ther are few scenarios. For example you can have build rate of 90 but not enough engines or HI and hence no plane would be built/researched.
3) The manual can not tell the truth. Taking into account previous Matrix works it is very probable. From my work experience I can only say that documentation and testing are not the job the programmers love to do and especially in tight budget and timeline documentation may not reflect the latest changes in the functionality.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 11:39:00 PM)

One thing thats was added was a negative modifier to keep things reasonable.

You'll find that committing R&D to aircraft that are closer to production gives better results then R&D spent against aircraft that are very far out.

This doesn't change the basic rule, it changes the impact of the rule. Advancing a 1945 aircraft a month is a lot harder then advancing a 1943 aircraft. Just common sense when you think it through. You have to have the 1943 aircraft to move designs forward to make the 1945 aircraft ever possible.



Damien Thorn -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 11:40:30 PM)

I set up a limited test. I game a factory 2000 production of Shinden a month, with plenty of supply and HI. I ran it for five days. Based on the formula of needing to accumulate 100 points to move the date by one month, I should have seen a change of at least one month but I saw no change. [:(] Thus, either the formula is wrong or there is a bug.
Right now I'm thinking this is just a trick to get the Japanese player to sink precious points into a doomed project. If you think of the 1000's of points of supply wasted and all the potential plane production lost, it is just not worth it.



2ndACR -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 11:46:23 PM)

BTR had a few unproduceable a/c no matter how much you researched it. Of course that has been fixed by JC.
I would rather spend my time and energy on the George and Frank than the Shinden. If I could get enough units to use them.[:D]

Sorry could not resist one more kick to the horse.



Caltone -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 11:47:57 PM)

What was the ingame date when you did this Damien? I think its been said that you'll get your best results when you're within a year of the planes historical arrival date.



Damien Thorn -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/4/2004 11:58:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

What was the ingame date when you did this Damien? I think its been said that you'll get your best results when you're within a year of the planes historical arrival date.


It was May of 42 so maybe that is the reason. Maybe the game doesn't let you start accumulating research when you are more than a year out. Of course, if that is the case, it would be nice to know that!



Caltone -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 12:01:50 AM)

There was a post or two by Frag that mentioned safeguards in the code to prevent you from moving something up too much. This sounds like the minus thing Frag mentions above. Just a check to keep things reasonable I guess.



SiTheSly -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 12:02:54 AM)

I pretty much having been doing what shoevarek has been doing but I threw everything into two planes.

The Ki43 IIa although not that good is at the end of an upgrade and I was hoping to get it six months early. It's March 15th and I'm producing 105 according to the intel screen and it hasn't moved from Jan 43.

The other project is the A6M8 but that hasn't really got going for some reason the factories never repair.



shoevarek -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 12:32:57 AM)

quote:

This doesn't change the basic rule, it changes the impact of the rule.


This changes a whole lot as I don't know what kind of the modifier it is and don't know the impact of this. How can I plan my movements then.

Also if you saw my previous post - using original formula to be really sure of gaining the development point you need to have the factory producing/researching at rate over 29 (and required amount of engines and HI). I am lazy and dumb so I play historic difficulty (easiest) campaign against AI but still don't see any prospects of speeding up availability date more than a year - first I need to repair the factories and then when they actually start developing something there is not so much time left to really impact the availability date. It seems to me that formula from the manual would work just fine. Did the testers encounter any problem with that?

quote:

Advancing a 1945 aircraft a month is a lot harder then advancing a 1943 aircraft. Just common sense when you think it through. You have to have the 1943 aircraft to move designs forward to make the 1945 aircraft ever possible.


Why? Japanese player is not developing new unknown technology like jet engines for example. Most Japanese designs went into service so late because of lack of political support, war and unexpected natural events - like city and factory bombardments, earthquakes, uneffective resource management. The inability to grasp the new technologies was not the main issue. If I as player streamline the production, focus on the R&D and am in general able to provide the economy with required resources keeping it safe from enemy bombers (do everything they did not managed in real life) I should be able to move the availability date around a year. Some planes had the test flights way ahead of their serial production. Technology, though not perfect, was there.

I hope I will manage to start producing A7 at the beginning on 1945 and Ki84 at the beginning of 1944. Huge part of my economy works on R&D of those planes. If I can't make it the next game I will even not bother playing with it - one month is not worth this huge amount of resources and othe rproduction sacrifices, especially if you really don't know if there will be anyone in 1944-45 capable of flying those aircrafts.



The Dude -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 12:50:14 AM)

Is it me or is this the one subject that everyone would like a black and white answer for and are not getting? For myself i would like to know just how far i can advance the planes. I realize there are variables involved but in the end can you advance a plane a year, a month or whatever. If I played the game a while and made no progress at the considerable cost of criplling efforts elsewhere i would be quite choked to put it mildly. So if anyone has the magic formula PLEASE come forward.

My rant is complete and i'm spent[>:]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 12:52:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

One thing thats was added was a negative modifier to keep things reasonable.

You'll find that committing R&D to aircraft that are closer to production gives better results then R&D spent against aircraft that are very far out.

This doesn't change the basic rule, it changes the impact of the rule. Advancing a 1945 aircraft a month is a lot harder then advancing a 1943 aircraft. Just common sense when you think it through. You have to have the 1943 aircraft to move designs forward to make the 1945 aircraft ever possible.


Ahh! I was going to bring this up in a thread, but never have. Is that REALLY modelled by intent? A "Civiliazation" style technology tree? Sounds sensible. Seems ludicrous to be able to build an A7M without at least developing A6M series designs to at least prototype, first. We didn't go from a P_80 Shooting Star to an F-22 Raptor without building Sabre's, SuperSabre's, Star Fighters, Phantoms, and Eagles, first....



SiTheSly -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 1:12:59 AM)

quote:

Is it me or is this the one subject that everyone would like a black and white answer for and are not getting?


It's not just you. I just want to now how it works as well.



esteban -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 1:19:06 AM)

What about Allied R&D facilities? I know there is a big one for B-29s. Do Allied planes ever get their arrival dates advanced?

It would be nice to get some real information on exactly what the numbers are. The manual's explanation of how R&D works is obviously no longer valid.

But it would be good to get some numbers so we know what we are trying to accomplish, and how large we have to build our R&D facilities to get a real chance of advancement.

That being said, I don't want to see people flying the Reppu in 1943. Perhaps if you had the mother of all R&D programs you could push it to December 1944.



Brady -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 6:47:01 AM)

"This doesn't change the basic rule, it changes the impact of the rule. Advancing a 1945 aircraft a month is a lot harder then advancing a 1943 aircraft. Just common sense when you think it through. You have to have the 1943 aircraft to move designs forward to make the 1945 aircraft ever possible. "

lol, well many late war designes were started early in the war, even at its begining, so having to build say an oscare II so that the Ki 84 would be posable is asinine, it is pure and simple a game play isue one intentinaly geared toward puting off late war Japanese aircraft untill late in the war..remember WiTP is geared so that the Alies will win, giving the Empire to much leway would offfer up the chance that that might not hapen....Just look for example at how you are alowed to upgrade aircraft only unit levals that would aproxamate historic ones for the se late war planes are actualy available to you, you are not alowed to up grade say all you Zero Units to Georges even if you manage to build enough to do so.



esteban -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 8:04:39 AM)

It would be nice though, if in 1942, those few R&D Reppus you do produce actually counted towards an overall production acceleration of the plane. I am not saying that my 1942 research should move the Reppu up by 3 months, but most of one month, or perhaps a little more, would be nice.

As it is right now, it kind of sounds that unless you have a 100+ research facility going, you get no movement at all.

Thats why I want to see some kind of numbers. Am I just wasting time and resources trying to advance a plane like the Reppu in 1942? Do we need to produce and convert to the A6M8 first, before the Reppu? It makes it very tough to responsibly plan your R&D if you do not know this information.



Warspite** -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 8:04:42 AM)

I conducted a test with the May 1942 campaign all the way to December 1944. Keep in mind during the test the allies conducted neither a strategic bombing campaign nor a subamarine campaign, so Japan received full production and delivery of resources and oil. Now in the test I maintained most factories on the planes they were suppose to build, only adding a factory or two and then expanding that factory to at leat 30, so I got a 'build' a day. Franks received the most as they start with a factory that has 300, though you have to repair it. NIK1 I moved to 10/43, Franks I moved to 3/44 and Reppus 1/45. Not bad in my opinion. I don't think there is anything wrong with the research model myself. It prevents wild investiture into R/D and creates diminishing returns on those investments.



esteban -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 8:06:39 AM)

Warspite,

did you carry the test forward far enough to see if you can go directly from the A6M5 to the Reppu??



HawaiiFive-O -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 8:15:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warspite**

NIK1 I moved to 10/43, Franks I moved to 3/44 and Reppus 1/45.



That's great news. It's really more generous than I thought it would be. It's good to see that R+D will pay off, provided you've got the resources to burn.



shoevarek -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 8:29:41 AM)

quote:

Franks received the most as they start with a factory that has 300, though you have to repair it. NIK1 I moved to 10/43, Franks I moved to 3/44 and Reppus 1/45.


Could you supply the numbers? How many factories actually researched A7M? The gains seem substential although the conditions were perfect and probably same results can't be reached in the regular game (especially against human opponent). I invest in R&D for over 6 months and till now have no visible effects. Hope soon I will break even point and get noticable gains. I will keep on playing with R&D - changing availability date by around 6 months seems to be worth the effort.



SiTheSly -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 8:53:40 AM)

quote:

NIK1 I moved to 10/43, Franks I moved to 3/44 and Reppus 1/45.


Thanks for doing the test Warspite now we know it works and the results are good enough for me to put the effort in.

It's already been mentioned above but just to make the point again you cannot upgrade from a A6M5 Zeke to a A7M2 Reppu without upgrading to the A6M8 first. When I mean upgrade you only need 30 in the pool to do all your A6M5 but you do need to have it in production (well in the pool) which means if you don't research the A6M8 then your Reppus are worthless till Jan 45 anyway.

Just thought I would mention this again in case someone was putting a huge effort into getting the Reppu early.



Drongo -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 9:08:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly
It's already been mentioned above but just to make the point again you cannot upgrade from a A6M5 Zeke to a A7M2 Reppu without upgrading to the A6M8 first. When I mean upgrade you only need 30 in the pool to do all your A6M5 but you do need to have it in production (well in the pool) which means if you don't research the A6M8 then your Reppus are worthless till Jan 45 anyway.


Don't you mean to say that you cannot manually upgrade an air unit equipped with the A6M5 to the A7M without having sufficient A6M8s in the pool first?

There should be nothing unique about the A6M5/A7M upgrade combination that an automatic upgrade wouldn't handle.



SiTheSly -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 9:21:56 AM)

quote:

There should be nothing unique about the A6M5/A7M upgrade combination that an automatic upgrade wouldn't handle.


Do you mean that if I set it to auto upgrade it can skip a generation without planes in the pool?

If it can then I didn't know that, so thanks for pointing it out and everyone just ignore my previous post as I was mistaken.

That of course means I should have researched the reppu not the A6M8



Drongo -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 10:02:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly
Do you mean that if I set it to auto upgrade it can skip a generation without planes in the pool?

If it can then I didn't know that, so thanks for pointing it out and everyone just ignore my previous post as I was mistaken.

That of course means I should have researched the reppu not the A6M8


Yes, the automatic upgrade should skip the A6M8 step (it did when I tried it under the 1.20 version, I'm yet to try it under 1.21 but it should be the same).

The only problem I know of with researching the A7M while not researching the A6M8 is that aircraft assembly industry will not skip an upgrade for free.

This means that if you get the A7M's availability date down to (say) 1/45 while the A6M8 is still at 7/45, any A6M5 aircraft industries will not automatically upgrade to the A7M when available. You will have to do that one manually (and suffer damaged industry) or wait till the A6M8 is available in 7/45 when any A6M5 industry will convert for free, first to the A6M8 and then to the A7M and all should occur over the period of a few days (but I doubt if anyone would want to wait for this one [:)] ).



Drongo -> RE: Decreasing the Japanese plane availability date (8/5/2004 12:14:04 PM)

Just an additional observations from testing that I thought I might add for clarification to some other questions I saw.

Firstly, the rule of thumb rate that I've seen in my testing (including the current 1.21 version) is that a factory that has 300 working (ie not damaged) aircraft assemblies will accelerate the availability date of an aircraft at the rate of 1 month for every 3 months spent researching.

Secondly, there appears to be little difference in the rate at which availability dates change once industry is repaired. ie In '42, an A7M seems to have the same chance of advancing its availability date as an Ki-43-II if they both had the same amount of repaired industry (which would be a rarity but its still worth noting).

All the above assumes sufficient supplies and HI being available.



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