1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (Full Version)

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MadDawg -> 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 1:13:20 AM)

Hi Folks

Ive just noticed that I have 1 pilot whom made 10 kills on his first mission. This leads me to a question - is a planes gun ammo taken into consideration during air to air combat? Ive checked out the editor and ammo isnt listed for guns, so is it tracked as a generic figure for all planes or not at all?

Im not saying a pilot couldnt get this many kills in a single battle, but he would have to be very conservative with ammo usage.

Dawg



Alexander Seil -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 1:48:43 AM)

Or, perhaps, he claimed more kills than he actually got? Is pilot kill # affected by FOW?



MadDawg -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 1:59:56 AM)

Good point - I just did a quick test and have found that pilot kills arent affected by FOW though. [:)]



mongo -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 2:07:45 AM)

The best I can think of off the top of my head is...

Hrm..

I want to say Vraciu? I have a picture somewhere with him holding up 6 fingers. Marianas Turkey Shoot I believe.

Who know how many someone like Galland got in one mission? [&o]



MadDawg -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 2:12:55 AM)

It was actually a Japanese pilot flying a A6M3 [;)] As I said I dont think its impossible, especially with a careful pilot using those 20mm canons but I wonder if ammo is tracked, at least in a generic manner? I would think so but if not it could be leading to some pretty odd combat results.

Dawg



mongo -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 2:19:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

It was actually a Japanese pilot flying a A6M3


Wow.. now THAT would be some serious trigger control [&o]

I know i've seen 8 in one mission from one of my Hellcat boys, but that's a lot more ammo than the M3..

I'll be curious to see who has what for top pilot after finishing Scen 15 (in a year or so I know [:)])



geozero -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 3:19:54 AM)

Was that in a dogfight? or did the pilot attack a runway with 10 planes parked there?



MadDawg -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 3:23:00 AM)

It was either in the defence of his own carrier or during an attack on the enemies, as that is the only action he could have taken part on before his carrier was trashed. [;)] Either way it was in a dogfighting role, not sweep.

Dawg



Tankerace -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 3:30:04 AM)

In my game I have the AVG stationed at Rangoon, and on one turn about 60 Japanese planes were intecepted by 3 P-40Es. I lost 1 P-40, but the pilots were credited with 28 enemy a/c destroyed. So that breaks down to almost 9.3 kills per pilot. Go AVG!



Charles2222 -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 3:36:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Hi Folks

Ive just noticed that I have 1 pilot whom made 10 kills on his first mission. This leads me to a question - is a planes gun ammo taken into consideration during air to air combat? Ive checked out the editor and ammo isnt listed for guns, so is it tracked as a generic figure for all planes or not at all?

Im not saying a pilot couldnt get this many kills in a single battle, but he would have to be very conservative with ammo usage.

Dawg


He would get that many kills for four reasons:

a) he's really good
b) he was a kamikaze
c) he accidentally strafed his own HQ
d) he used to work for the post office and..........



Jaws_slith -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 4:40:28 AM)

Most important question (in my opinion) who was the enemy? Bi-planes, Dutch, US?



MadDawg -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 4:48:06 AM)

Enemy was a US carrier group in late August, '42.



Jaws_slith -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 4:59:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Enemy was a US carrier group in late August, '42.


Wow... Bombers or Fighters? Or bombers without escort?



MadDawg -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 5:04:08 AM)

I think he was probably CAP against an incoming groups of fighter/bombers (if not he was escort against only enemy fighters). As I mentioned I dont think its impossible, but damn lucky. I do hope that gun ammo is tracked in some way though and this was just a 1 in a 1000 chance.

Dawg



DJAndrews -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 5:04:59 AM)

I've seen this happen quite a bit. Pilots generally seem to get their kills in bunches. The same thing used to happen in UV.

I've had the eight kills in one mission, but the best so far for me was the guy who became an ace without recording a mission. The first time he went up on CAP the Japanese came in with a bunch of Sonias escorted by Nates and Oscars. Since CAP doesn't count as a mission he now has 5 kills for zero missions. At that rate, all we have to do is let him actually fly a mission in his P-40 and the entire Japanese air force will be toast.

Seriously though, the whole kill thing is way out of whack. Playing the Turkey Shoot, a single squadron, VF-16, shot down about 350 of the 600 planes the allies downed, The next closest squadron had about 60. In addition, although the allies lost some 200 planes in that campaign they had only 1 KIA and 3 WIA among the hundred or so "top pilots".

Fortunately who records a kill is essentially meaningless for the sake of the larger game.



Jaws_slith -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 5:11:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

I think he was probably CAP against an incoming groups of fighter/bombers (if not he was escort against only enemy fighters). As I mentioned I dont think its impossible, but damn lucky. I do hope that gun ammo is tracked in some way though and this was just a 1 in a 1000 chance.

Dawg


Well in a combat with other fighters the chance you would run out of fuel due manoevring is bigger than run out of ammo. But once in a while I don't mind a supper pilot as long as it is incidental.

Make that pilot the squadron leader[;)]



Alexander Seil -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 5:32:37 AM)

Somehow I highly doubt that, but perhaps the distances involved in the Pacific might make it so...how many seconds of continuous fire did most fighters have? 40 seconds? 30?



Jaws_slith -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 6:34:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

Somehow I highly doubt that, but perhaps the distances involved in the Pacific might make it so...how many seconds of continuous fire did most fighters have? 40 seconds? 30?


Is this about the fuel??

If so then I will answere this[&:]

To kill an enemy plane you need to manoeuvre behind him in most situations. The enemy will of course does every thing to prevent that. So if you are lucky and you find an inexperience enemy (which I doubt in a US carrier squadron late 1942) it will take you up to 5 minutes to get a clear shot and kill him. Mostly not the first shot is a kill of course. I've read some books of Hans-Ulrich Rudel, Erich Hartmann and a few others. Hartman was a fighter pilot and had a top of 5 kills in one mission. Mostly he has to return due fuel shortage, he and his mates never shot their guns empty because they didn’t know if the return route was clear. He only once runs out of ammo as he writes in his book. In the war he shot down 352 enemy planes. So 10 is a lot in my opinion… but again incidental I don’t mind.[:)]



Alexander Seil -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 6:49:32 AM)

I'm afraid that not every fighter pilot is a Hartmann [:D]



Tankerace -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 7:40:40 AM)

That varies by plane. Since he was flying CAP off a carrier, I would say he's in an F4F-4. So, 6 .50 Browning machine guns, he problem had 15 to 18 seconds of sustained fire. Then again, a .5 to 1 second burst on a Zeke where the wing meets the fuselage by 6 .50's could saw off the wing. And on a Betty, Pilot Buch O"Hare remarked that when hit, even by a small burst, the plane would burst into flames.

If he were in an F4F-3, with only 4 .50s, his sustained ammo would probably alot 22-24 seconds of firing.



MadDawg -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 7:44:48 AM)

Tankerace, any idea how much ammo an A6M3 would have had? Does anyone know if the combat routines do actually take into accoung gun ammo?

Dawg



Tankerace -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 7:47:27 AM)

A6M3, 2 7.7mgs he probably had about 500 rounds per gun, I'd say about 20 seconds sustained fire. For the 20mm, 60 rounds per gun (Same as the early cannon armed Spitfires), so for those he only had a few seconds, probably 8 to 10 sustained fire MAX, but I am thinking more on the area of 5 seconds.



Hortlund -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 9:55:27 AM)

German pilot Marseille got 14 kills in one day. Google on his name to get some very interesting stories.

He was killed in Africa in 41 I think. What made him so good was his marksmanship, he spent something like an average of 20 MG bullets and 3-4 20mm grenades on each kill. Truly an amazing pilot.

Hartmann is still my favourite though.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 1:09:49 PM)

Maybe he was Saburu Sakai? IIRC he wrote (in "Samurai!") of one shooting down a F4F firing 3 cannon rounds.

Steve.



Captain Cruft -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 4:00:36 PM)

I'm not sure but I don't think ammo is tracked, there's no value in the editor anyway.

-----

***
DISCLAIMER - I have absolutely no idea how air combat actually works.
***

Possible multiple kills explanation, procedural style (sans declarations) ... 

for (i = 0; i < n_fighters_cap; i++) {
    if (successful_intercept(fighters_cap[i])) {
        for (j = 0; j < n_fighters_escort; j++) {
            resolve_attack(fighters_cap[i], fighters_escort[j]);
        }
        if (fighters_cap[i]->still_alive) {
            for (k = 0; k < n_bombers_attack; k++) {
                resolve_attack(fighters_cap[i], bombers_attack[k]);
            }
        }
    }
}


In other words, every defending plane that successfully intercepts gets a chance to shoot at every attacking plane, and vice versa.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 5:12:28 PM)

A lot has to do, I'm sure with how often the Random Number generator is 1) used in a computation sequence, 2) seeded. Consider the the Random number generator call being a roll of the dice and seeding being using a new die. Is every air-to-air shot taken attempted a new roll of the die or is it rolled only every so often in an outside loop of some sort. What about seeding. A "bad seed" can result in some fairly screwy number outputs. What it is seeded with can have a lot to do with it as well (the seed, itself, should be somewhat random as well, like the milli/micro second part of the system clock). And we will HOPE they are not using rand(), but something homegrown and a bit more "robust".

And then we get what I call the "agent queue" issue. This refers to how, in a Telemarketing call center, for instance, you keep agent 1 from getting inundated while agent five gets almost nothing (i.e. how to evenly disperse work across the queue). This problem here seems to be the same sort of problem we see when one AK takes 50 hits and the others in the TF barely get scratched. In this case, it appears Pilot 1 may be getting "picked to fight" more often than the others



Banquet -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 5:59:17 PM)

Are you sure he's only flown 1 mission?

For some reason not all the missions a pilot fly's are counted in the pilot info screens. I've had pilots listed with 2-3 kills, but no missions at all. So, if the pilot screen shows 1 mission.. it might be wrong..



Top Cat -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 8:08:16 PM)

You should call this guy "Paul Fonck" after the French WWI ace.

He once shot down 3 German planes in 10 seconds. Or to be more precise he shot the 3 pilots in 10 seconds. Was legendary for his miserly expenditure of bullets.

Twice shot down 6 Germans in a day. One of a handful of pilots that could pull off deflection shots.
ie not from behind (or front on)

Cheers
Top Cat



Top Cat -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 8:08:19 PM)

You should call this guy "Paul Fonck" after the French WWI ace.

He once shot down 3 German planes in 10 seconds. Or to be more precise he shot the 3 pilots in 10 seconds. Was legendary for his miserly expenditure of bullets.

Twice shot down 6 Germans in a day. One of a handful of pilots that could pull off deflection shots.
ie not from behind (or front on)

Cheers
Top Cat



DrewMatrix -> RE: 1 Pilot - 1 Mission - 10 Kills? (8/9/2004 8:13:47 PM)

Chuck Yeager shot down 5 German A/C in one single mission (12 October 1944). Three of the five he killed with zero expenditure of bullets (he basically got on their tail and harassed them so they flew into the ground or each other. Having someone 50 feet behind you can rattle you I guess.

http://www.chuckyeager.org/htm_docs/1944_2.shtml



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