Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (Full Version)

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mattbirra -> Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 11:07:11 AM)

I would like to know how is implemented next issue:
Lets suppose, we have Napo with one corp in Vienna at war with Austria an Russia, and, in a adjacent area, there is a stack of , say, 15 corps with Charles (it’s an crazy example, but what matters is the fact [:D]),
Austria moves and encircle Napo with one corp in every area and attack Napo with the left corps plus Charles …
If Napo chooses Withdraw and gets it, could Napo really withdraw to a not contiguous area or is he destroyed because all adjacent areas are occupied by the enemy???

If Napo figths and loose then what ???? [sm=00000280.gif]



fjbn -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 11:10:24 AM)

If he cannot withdraw, he will be captured, no matter if all the factors have been killed or not. There is only a posibility to kill a leader, and it's the leader casualties roll.



mattbirra -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 11:18:49 AM)

i havent play board game long ago but capturing an army is only possible when witdrawing in an unload from ship
Am I rigth ?



eg0master -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 11:23:27 AM)

You always withdraw to an adjent area not containing enemy units or an area from where an enemy entered the field battle in the direction of the closest depot or city you own.

As far as I interpet the rules this means if Britain invades (from sea) somewhere in italy and also has control of for example denmark, any withdraw should be in the general direction of denmark (or gibraltar).

The only way to capture an army is if it has no area to move to (because it is occupied or was opccupied by any enemy units in the field battle).



mattbirra -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 11:25:37 AM)

ok tahx for answers mates, didnt remember the rule [;)]



eg0master -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 2:10:23 PM)

I checked the rules and I was wrong... The original EiA rules states (in short):
- When retreating after field combat you retreat towards the closest depot or if no depots on map towards the closest controlled capital.
- If you retreat into an area containing enemy units you retreat again.
- you may however not retreat into the same area twice and not across crossing arrows.
I guess this means that the only time you cannot retreat (and must surrender) is if there are enemy units all the way from the battle to the closest depot (since on the depot it is the closest and you must retreat to that area again) or if your closest depot/capitol is on the other side of a crossing arrow.

However if a besieged force looses a breach - all surviving units surrender.

As far as I can see those are the only cases when corps/factors/leaders may be captured by the enemy. Making it very rare for field combat but more common when garrisoned.



mattbirra -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 2:49:45 PM)

So , if an unload from ship with a depot you have to retreat to ship ??? ...
then how those troops should get the ship ... should them be destroyed or captured ????? [&:]
or you can move towards a depot in England ... uhmmmm ... too hard to believe ... so then again ...
Should unload troops be captured ???



eg0master -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 2:57:19 PM)

Hm... you may not retreat back onto the ships and if there is a depot there it is closest so an invading force would be captured I guess... But if you have no depot with invasion supply you retreat "inland" towards another depot or capital... [8|]

But the big question... How are retreats handled in the game...



mattbirra -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 3:47:29 PM)

if my memory doesnt play with me, when invading you are captured when retreating , but you are absolutely rigth ... how the game is implemented in this issue !!!!!!



eg0master -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/13/2004 3:57:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mattbirra

if my memory doesnt play with me, when invading you are captured when retreating , but you are absolutely rigth ... how the game is implemented in this issue !!!!!!


Well the rules say nothing special about invasions and retreats...
But now it's time for Mr. Ellis to tell us how it works in the game... [;)]



vonpaul -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/15/2004 6:33:18 AM)

quote:


As far as I can see those are the only cases when corps/factors/leaders may be captured by the enemy. Making it very rare for field combat but more common when garrisoned.

Not as rare as you think, Not that hard for a army to be totally wiped out in this game as long as the victor has a bunch of cavalry.
Not every battle involves monster stacks of 10 corp.



eg0master -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/15/2004 2:07:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonpaul

quote:


As far as I can see those are the only cases when corps/factors/leaders may be captured by the enemy. Making it very rare for field combat but more common when garrisoned.

Not as rare as you think, Not that hard for a army to be totally wiped out in this game as long as the victor has a bunch of cavalry.
Not every battle involves monster stacks of 10 corp.


Wiped out and captured (i.e. prisoners) is not the same thing. Wiped out - not rare. Capturede - rare. IMHO.



grudge -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/17/2004 10:39:06 AM)

Hi all of you,
just following the EiA-forum and waiting for the release.... .... ... ...

I'm playing EiA with a bunch of Spanish/American/German guys via pbem and we are playing the withdraw like this:

1 When retreating after field combat you retreat towards the closest depot or if no depots on map towards the closest controlled capital.
2 If you retreat into an area containing enemy units you retreat again.
3 you may however not retreat into the same area twice and not across crossing arrows.
That's what the rules say.

In case there is a cossack in the depot area (which I don't think is allowed, but the others voted for it), you have to retreat to the depot (1). Cause there are enemy troops in it you have to retreat again (2). Then you have to go back to (1) and retraet again to the nearest depot. As you (3) cannot retreat into an area twice these retreating forces are eliminated.
That' what we voted for...unfortunately

So I have some major problems. First I don't like the interpretation of the retreatment rule like this. I think you can retreat to the next depot or city if the original depot is occupied.
Next I think you are not allowed to have an enemy troop and a own depot (ungarissoned) in the same area. Unfortunately one guy stated this:

"The wording of 7.3.6.1 is rather explicit: "... _may_ elect to destroy ..." and "_An_ alternative to destroying ..."
The first one implies that it is not a _must_ that the depot should be destroyed. The second one introduces the conversion of the depot as one alternative and not as _the_ alternative. These imply that there are other options that destroying or converting the depot. The only other option available is really an unmentioned _non-destruction_ of the depot.
Up to now, I never thought that the depot can be left untouched, but that seems to be the way the rules read. In fact, I read the parts about what happens to a depot after a battle and even then it seems to allow for the option of leaving the depot intact."

So, put a cossack on one of your depots, win a battle and the other side forces are eliminated (not even captured)!!
I need help from you guys, how would you explain and argue??

BTW, I'm German and not very firm in american intepretation of the written rules ("may" and "an alternative")....

cu
grudge



eg0master -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/17/2004 10:54:59 AM)

Seams like you are following the rules as I interpret them... Have to look at that cossack thingy... Think you are right on that one.

The thing I find most wrong with the retreatment rules is that you potentially retreat more areas than you may move when you move your corp(s). I've played sometimes with the house rule that you retreat one are and if that is not enough (i.e. enemies everywhere) you surrender.



mattbirra -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/17/2004 8:33:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mattbirra

if my memory doesnt play with me, when invading you are captured when retreating , but you are absolutely rigth ... how the game is implemented in this issue !!!!!!



well .. finally i decided to check rules and found this one :

7.5.2.10.3 Retreat After Losing A Combat: The loser is retreated one area by the victor. This occurs after pursuit (if any).
7.5.2.10.3.1: All retreats must be into an adjacent land area that is closest (any closest area, if several qualify equally) to the nearest depot of any nationality in force, or if none is on the map, towards that force's nearest controlled national capital city.
7.5.2.10.3.2: A retreating force may never be split up.
7.5.2.10.3.3: If the area retreated to contains an unbesieged enemy corps, cossack, freikorps or depot garrison, the force is retreated one more area (same rules as 7.5.2.10.3. 1), etc., until an open area is reached.
7.5.2.10.3.4: Retreat across a crossing arrow or onto ships is not permitted.
7.5.2.10.3.5: A force may not retreat into the same area twice in the same retreat.
7.5.2.10.3.6: A force must surrender (A army factors and leaders in the force become prisoners) if no retreat route is available.

this is the standard one ... see 7.5.2.10.3.4

BUT , i have always play this optinal rule :

7.5.2.10.3.6 Retreat after Disembarking: Corps which disembarked into a land area (7.3.5) and are then forced to retreat in the subsequent land combat step must surrender (all army factors and any accompanying leaders become prisoners).

Thats why I thougth it was a standard EiA rule...

Anyway , if Mr. Ellis tell us if this optional rule is in game ... this topic would be closed [:D]



9thlegere -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/17/2004 8:35:35 PM)

What we did was this:

if an army is beaten and needs to retreat but it is actually encircled by enemy corps, we would make it fight another battle immediatly with the unit preventing its retreat but with the -0.5 morale for fighting the second day. If the losing army broke through by winning, fine they escape, but if they failed to win- they were forced to surrender.

This stopped a wild ploy by an allied player using cossacks, small cavalry corps and minor corps from moving an opponent very far away from where he actually lost the orignial battle (often making more moves than they could have done) OR basically rounding up an army with 2cav factors!

Okay it only happened twice but it was enough for us to decide to import a house rule- The defeated army can try to break out the encirclement.

I suppose a bad example could be the French Army beating the Bavarians at Hanau after Leipzig, or Ferdinand managinf to escape with part of the Austrian Army in 1805 just before Macks surrender at Ulm.

What do you all think?

I am sure someone won't like this [;)]



mattbirra -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/17/2004 8:37:34 PM)

LOL i played this one as a home rule .... [;)]



mattbirra -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/17/2004 10:12:32 PM)

This that I think about how the rules try to simulate reality:
When in campaing, armys used to take little battles all along the month, in an area, as armies moved back and foward in an area along one month, so, how to to this in a game,
and make a game playable ??? a player moves, finishes moving, makes just one battle and then another player moves, this is the first think we have to deal with...

In terms of game, when an army is completily encircled, gets us far from real world (i think) because those moves could be far seen by the enemy, specially when at home nation, so, this is allowed only in game, and those encirclements had to be in a real short period of time and absolutely sinchronized to be profitable, that's why in game, a retreating army can go though enemy corps, because rules assume it is not possible to encircle an army , but, other point would be if this encirclement is possible, then two battles in a moth may be assumed because we could imagine those battles are distant in time from each other (i.e. one week).
As a playable simulation this game is, we have to deal with the issues, and choose between the worst and the most playable ... but this is what i think ... and i am not Napo [;)]



Titi -> RE: Crazy question: Withdraw or die? (8/18/2004 7:27:41 PM)

I agree with Mattbirra here,

The goal of the battle is to defeat the enemy army not to annihilate it.
Napoleon did retreat from Moscow. He was pushed back not encircled.

Surrender of an army can only happen after a disemarking army is defeated, when fighting on an isle like denmark, sicily or when there is no hope (capital occupied and no more depot on the map).



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