PT Boats from Hell (Full Version)

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Xargun -> PT Boats from Hell (8/14/2004 9:11:10 AM)

Was there a major change in the number of PT Boats given to the allies in the new OOB ? I'm just seeing lots of them in the DEI and at PH that I didn't see last game before the patches..

Xargun



Brady -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/14/2004 9:25:18 AM)

The US Navy had 500(aprox.) World Wide in Service in WW2.



Grotius -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/14/2004 7:00:49 PM)

Well, they sure seem deadly. Their torpedoes seem to find a target more frequently than my submarines' torpedoes. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be, but these PT boats rarely miss.



spence -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/14/2004 7:24:20 PM)

Don't know the game specifically but the Dutch had some kind of equivalent in the DEI and perhaps the game includes all motor torpedo boats under a generic "PT Boat"

Just some idle curiousity - the British had a Motor Gunboat type that they used in the English Channel in company with their Motor Torpedo Boats - anybody know if any of those were used in the Pacific as well?



Maliki -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 9:46:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Well, they sure seem deadly. Their torpedoes seem to find a target more frequently than my submarines' torpedoes. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be, but these PT boats rarely miss.


Interestingly enough in my game they only use them sparingly.The way i use my PT's is against Jap Supply or transport convoys,if something bigger is headed their way i stand them down.Sometimes they open up with 20mm guns but mostly they like to rake the Jap ships with 50 calibre.Though it cuts both ways.I watched one AG take 3 torpedo hits several 20 mm hits and some 50. hits and it never sank[X(]Sometimes it seems like this game gives weird results...another example being an AK that took 61(yes 61) shots from a heavy cruiser force before it sank or a group of 3 destroyers and 2 light cruisers that managed to maul 3 of my battleships despite taking numerous hits from them,and managed to sail away without one of their force sinking.Just go with the flow and expect some results that always don't seem possible.



shoevarek -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 10:30:42 AM)

Why do you need battleships if you have PT boats?

Seriously, I just bumped into them in Lae and they seem to be invincible. Sure I can sink 2 or 3 in one battle but AI seems to have dozens of them. No matter how many screen light ships I have they always find the way to put few torps in my capital ships. And there is one more thing that really pisses me off - I saw PT boat taking several 14inch hits and several smaller rounds hits. This is ridiculous!!! All battles seem to take place in 2000 yard range. They can't see the boat just disintegrated???!!! Why do they use big guns anyway??? After few battles with 6 PT TFs even the strongest TF is completely broken and out of ammo.



fbastos -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 11:27:53 AM)

Historically, the PT boats were very expensive and not really worth of it...



Grotius -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 5:22:31 PM)

I sympathize with Shoevarek: PT boats seem surprisingly tough on defense, and as I said before, their torpedoes seem surprisingly accurate and deadly. How does one deal with them? CVs won't attack them with airstrikes, and Port Attacks usually miss them, it seems. It's foolhardy to risk even one capital ship. I suppose a bunch of DDs might be a good bet.

Maybe I'm just seeing skewed results, but I keep seeing the same results: PT boats blowing the enemy out of the water. If the enemy is a Transport TF, even escorted, the PT boats will carve it up.



Belphegor -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 5:47:38 PM)

I would reward a gunner who put a 14" shell into a PT boat with a commission and make him gunnery officer. Capital ships would not fire main armament at PT boats. Secondaries and if available tertiaries yes, but certainly not large main guns.

PT boats should be hard to hit, they are small, and ships are not stable gun platforms. Perhaps a limit on the number of PT boats in a TF would prevent the swarming?

Also, send your float planes after the PT boats. Small things after small things. They do quite well strafing at 100 Ft and won't sink PT boats but will certainly damage them. Use the float planes present on your ships for naval attack at 100 ft.... instead of all on naval search (as long as you don't expect to go up against large ship TFs)



mccavage -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 6:26:54 PM)

Phooey - I just had a 6 boat Dutch squadron fail to seriously hurt an already injured IJN AP. My PT's in the Phillipines and DEI have been harmless including a single IJN DD killing 3 and running off another 3 when hitting a fat convoy.[:@]



BoerWar -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 8:14:59 PM)

I hit one Dutch PT 40+ times with guns of various sizes in one battle before it finally sank. The rest of the squadron got away.[:@]



mongo -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 8:22:38 PM)

PT boat effectiveness has been hashed nearly to death in other threads. The conditions (if PTs are caught in daylight by DDs and CLs, they bleed) make a huge difference.

Fighter bombers work fairly well on naval attack provided there aren't better targets.

As with everthing else, the results in the game seem streaky. Some folks will see them be hell on water for a while, and others find them useless. The numbers seem to flow in curves - ups and downs..



shoevarek -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 9:58:43 PM)

quote:

PT boat effectiveness has been hashed nearly to death in other threads. The conditions (if PTs are caught in daylight by DDs and CLs, they bleed) make a huge difference


I can imagine at daylight PT boats can't come to close range and that is why they are useless. At night they should be more effective but.... I had TF with 6DD, 2CL and 4BB. For some reason my screen ships did not fire single shot and my BBs took few torps. I tried light force TF - only DDs and CLs - still not very effective. So is there any counter tactics against PT boats night attacks? It seems to me that by putting 20 PT boats in the port the base becomes virtually immune to night bombardment attacks.



shoevarek -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 10:12:26 PM)

quote:

I suppose a bunch of DDs might be a good bet.



I tried this. Personally I don't think it works well. PT boat is woth 1 point, DD - at least 6. Last night I lost 1DD and 1DD damaged in return for 2PTs. At 2000 yards range PT not only can put a torp but also demolish DD with AA and machine guns.

I believe in La Manche they used fast gunboats for defence against German PTs. Did anybody try to use PCs against them?



mongo -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/15/2004 10:16:44 PM)

I don't know what to tell you shoe..

I still think it's bad luck [:(]

I know I've seen PT tfs get ripped in both night and day, and by both DD tfs and regular (mixed) tfs..

Until someone is willing to fire up the tutorial (makes a great tester) and rip off 100 replays, I guess we won't know for sure about the code.

FWIW, I think they were deadlier in v1.0.. I personally believe they were toned down a bit.



Belphegor -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/16/2004 8:23:28 PM)

I believe you guys about strong PT boats, honestly. But a transport TF (AKs and APs and no escort) with deck guns just kicked the crap out of my PT boats (10 strong.)

I am not sure what that means except I think more data should be collected.



Caltone -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/16/2004 8:26:55 PM)

I've had some luck hitting PT's from CV's by setting the groups alt to 100 ft. I believe PT boats and barges can only be attacked by planes at that alt.



Toro -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/16/2004 8:48:49 PM)

Caltone's right. A/c will attack them if set to 100ft altitude.

My impression of them (noting I'm Allies against AI Japan) -- they are fairly useless. I've gotten a couple torpedoes on target, but against large surface ships I get my a@$# handed to me consistently. Of course, I'm not creating fleets of them, only small squadrons of six or so. Roll of the die, I guess.



Damien Thorn -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/16/2004 9:29:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

I've had some luck hitting PT's from CV's by setting the groups alt to 100 ft. I believe PT boats and barges can only be attacked by planes at that alt.


Yes, but if there is a surface combat group with good AA in range all of your pilots will get slaughtered. It only has to happen once to screw the Japanese pilot pool for the next one to two years. There is no reason we should have to set our planes to 100 feet to attack PT boats. If the game needs some sort of 'flag' altitude setting then let it be 12000 or some other number that won't totally screw the pilots if the AI decides to send them against a non-PT target.

The solution in my games is to reclassify PT boats as "PG" class ships. By classifiying them as Patrol Gunboats they don't get the special programming code that the PTs get-- no 2000 yard starting range, no bonus to hit, no form-insta-task force if your port is attacked. Now they work fine, just like other little ships.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/16/2004 9:36:45 PM)

What other weapon systems do you neuter? Just wondering.



Damien Thorn -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/16/2004 9:42:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

What other weapon systems do you neuter? Just wondering.


Japanese ASW... oh wait, that wasn't me. That was the developers. [;)]

I don't neuter the PT boats. They still have their torpedoes, just like subs or DD or CL ships. It's just now they have to actually close the range to use them LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE does.



mongo -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/17/2004 1:03:17 AM)

I've had PTs start at 10k yards.. It was daylight of course.

They got just slaughtered. I think Musashi got in a couple 18" hits..[X(]



UncleBuck -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/17/2004 1:08:43 AM)

I think the PT and Barge attack level of 100 feet is a bit much. If it were say 5K that would be resonable. Patrol Planes flew higher than 1000 feet, just doign a normal patrol, and they would attack PT's. I would like to have a better chance of attacking Barges and PTS without destroying my morale and increaseing Fatigue through the roof.

UB



Jim D Burns -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/17/2004 1:59:29 AM)

I think the problem with PT boats may be due to night ambushes. In my game every time I try to offensively use my PT’s (I move them into a Japanese base with a task force) they get slaughtered. However if I leave them on a defensive mission with a reaction range set, the AI avoids the base like the plague. If I move the PT’s away the AI attacks the base, so I’m guessing there is significant ambush code built into PT boat combats when they are defending a base.

If players want to sail into a hex containing PT boats on these defensive missions without first trying to destroy them with air power, then there should be a risk of a surprise attack that can potentially sink a capital ship or two. Players should sweep the base for a turn or two with a couple air groups set to 100 feet to be sure there are no possible PT’s lurking about before they move into a base hex.

Simply complaining until they are disabled by Matrix is a mistake in my opinion. We should strive to understand what is going on first before we cry for a change. Are these poor results being discussed occuring as a result of an ambush (did you sail into a hex containing PT’s) or are these occurring as a result of offensive use of these craft? Personally I’ve never had a single success when using PT’s offensively, so I suspect people are getting stung by surprise ambushes.

Recon planes are in the game for a reason, players need to slow down and systematically assault bases. First good recon (several days or weeks), then continuous prep bombing and strafing, followed by several turns of shore bombardments and surface sweeps. Only then should the transports move in to assault said base. These operations could take weeks, but this is how it was done historically. Rushing in against prepared defenders should cost you, even if those defenders are just PT boats.

Jim



DrewMatrix -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/17/2004 2:10:39 AM)

quote:

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Blaise Pascal


I am just trying to sort that out. So is doing nothing out of religious convicition the worst evil? Or is it just the most cheerful evil?



cyberwop36 -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/17/2004 3:43:40 AM)

Remember 1 historical point. The motor torpedo boat "PT" is the reason the destroyer was 1st invented. DD's were originally called Torpedo Boat Destroyers. When PT type craft 1st came out they scared the hell out of all the large Dreadnought based navies.

Under the right conditions and used properly a small relitivly cheap speed boat cold kill a huge and massively expensive capital ship.



mogami -> History of the DD (8/17/2004 4:58:58 AM)

Hi, Before WWI there was no such ship as the Destroyer. The Dreadnought was the ultimate weapon. Then one was sunk by a motor torpedo boat.
The Birth of the Destroyer. (Full name Motor Torpedo Boat Destroyer)

Sorry Cyberwop, don't know how I missed your post. I'll change mine to "What he said"

Because DD made MTB some what ineffective. The DD was modified to fill the role of the MTB (was armed with torpedos) Then the submarine further broadened it's role (it was given depth charges)

Now a new ship was required to combat the DD. The CL arrived. Then something to combat the CL the CA appeared. Now the BB had something other then enemy BB. The circle was complete and the BB began to grow larger again. Then some whacko figured airplanes could sink ships cheaper then ships could sink ships so the CV arrived. All the ships exposed to air attack now became escorts for their own CV. After this all ships that could not defend against enemy air or submarine threats vanished.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: History of the DD (8/17/2004 11:26:37 AM)

Problem I think lies with the fact that Task Forces are over simplified. There is no differentation between types of ship, roles of ships, positions of ships, etc, etc, etc...

Preferably, some sort of subdivision of TFs, with some sort of cause and effect flow to it, could have been attempted. Perhaps "Capital Ships" and "Screen" fields within the TF make up. This would most likely alter the present results significantly. Make the PTs have to deal with the screening light forces prior to getting a crack at the heavies. No more free shots I'd bet.



von Murrin -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/17/2004 11:36:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I think the problem with PT boats may be due to night ambushes. In my game every time I try to offensively use my PT’s (I move them into a Japanese base with a task force) they get slaughtered. However if I leave them on a defensive mission with a reaction range set, the AI avoids the base like the plague. If I move the PT’s away the AI attacks the base, so I’m guessing there is significant ambush code built into PT boat combats when they are defending a base.

If players want to sail into a hex containing PT boats on these defensive missions without first trying to destroy them with air power, then there should be a risk of a surprise attack that can potentially sink a capital ship or two. Players should sweep the base for a turn or two with a couple air groups set to 100 feet to be sure there are no possible PT’s lurking about before they move into a base hex.

Simply complaining until they are disabled by Matrix is a mistake in my opinion. We should strive to understand what is going on first before we cry for a change. Are these poor results being discussed occuring as a result of an ambush (did you sail into a hex containing PT’s) or are these occurring as a result of offensive use of these craft? Personally I’ve never had a single success when using PT’s offensively, so I suspect people are getting stung by surprise ambushes.

Recon planes are in the game for a reason, players need to slow down and systematically assault bases. First good recon (several days or weeks), then continuous prep bombing and strafing, followed by several turns of shore bombardments and surface sweeps. Only then should the transports move in to assault said base. These operations could take weeks, but this is how it was done historically. Rushing in against prepared defenders should cost you, even if those defenders are just PT boats.

Jim


Some very sharp observations there, none of which I can disagree with. I too have noticed a difference between offensive and defensive usage, but I would feel more comfortable with such an assessment after many more encounters.



tsimmonds -> RE: PT Boats from Hell (8/17/2004 3:22:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Simply complaining until they are disabled by Matrix is a mistake in my opinion. We should strive to understand what is going on first before we cry for a change.

You wild-eyed raving radical, you![;)] Good post.



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