CVE air groups??? (Full Version)

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john martino -> CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 5:25:35 AM)

I formed a Transport group with 1 CV and two CVE. Sadly these CVEs were newly arrived at Noumea and found out about 80% into my mission that both of them did not have any air group with them. Is this possible? if so what should I have done to insure that they had planes. Needless to say I lost the CV and the 2 CVEs as I was overwelmed by 2 Jap. CVs. Can you help? I must point out that I had other CVEs which had air units already on board upon arrival!!!!! This all happened in Jan 43 as the US player.



marky -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 6:07:46 AM)

hmm

well

i dont mean to point fingers

i mean this as constructive criticizm

did u check if they had any b4 they left port?

u can check by clicking on the carriers and looking at thw bottom left of the scrren to see if they have any airgroups aboard



rogueusmc -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 8:42:35 AM)

I usually set the squadrons' mission paramaters before they leave port.
What scenario are you playing?
Did you take the A/C off of the CVs to send the ships to Pearl?



marky -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 9:03:14 AM)

right nopw im playing a scenario after ichiki and bloody ridge

4 weeks of hell i think its called


ive lost only a couple ships, the japs have lost about 10, including i-7, my first sub kill

ive reinforced guadalcanal, aeriasl and ground troops

there r about 45000 allied troops on the canal

i wiped out the jap presence at taivu, preparing to attack tassafaraonga

i sent 12 subs to patrol off tassafaronga, and they have been SLAUGHTERING jap warships and transports


im flying supplies in primarily

2 fuel convoys reached tulagi (2 TKs) and lunga (3TKs)

and ive been using pt boats to good effect, basing them at tulagi

1 of my pt boats put a torp into the kongo

at 1 time there were 4 jap carries nw of the canal, but i hurt them pretty bad

according to intel, none were sunk, but theyre no doubt OOA

so far as i can tell, there are only approx 15000 japs on the canal

i have about a 3 to 1 advantage over them

ive been knocking zeros and bombers out of the sky with my aprox 10 fighter squadrons at henderson

this will b the 2nd time ive secured the canal

and yes, b4 i sent enterprise to pearl i took off her CAG

and a bmb force of about 15 DDs is heading for tassafaronga

it will b 1 3 pronged, 3-D assault against the japs there

ive also consolidated a few b17 groups into about 2

as soon as i get more and consiolidate them ill launch attacks against shortland

and rabaul

i also found out i forgot addtl av spprt onhenderson [:-]

but other than that, its going good

in addition, all of my carriers r still afloat

so, its going very good

at 1point i thot there was a chance that id lose the canal, but i believe that qick action, with a VERY tight sea blockade, ive been strangling the japs hold and supply line to the canal

i think i will secure the canal by the end of november[:D]

approx 3 months ahead of history [:D]



john martino -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 4:54:54 PM)

guys thes CVEs were newly arrived at Noemea and I am concerned that these new ships ( and I mean new from Pearl) arrived with no air groups aboard. I fully realize that I should have checked them by viewing the air groups but was surprised that they arrived from Pearl (new ) with no air units. I assumed wrong and paid dearly for that .



marky -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 4:59:19 PM)

yea, for sum reason the cves come empty

i checked the avail, saw the long island and checked her out, and saw that she had no planes on her

theyre good ferriers i guess [:'(]

also good for convoy escort, since theyre slow like the transports

u just have to find a small enuff CAG to put on her



sdj420 -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 5:13:47 PM)

I think the US CVLs come with planes, but the CVEs, at least the Long Island, don't.

IMO, the best thing to do with the CVE Long Island is to send her back to Pearl. This seems to have a big effect on their likelihood to release other, more useful, ships.

Same thing with the absolutely useless AVs (seaplane tenders). Best to just send them back and hope to get something you can use in return.



john martino -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 7:35:29 PM)

Guys I had some CVEs that came with planes and some that did not! Can anyone figure this out??? I am not speaking of CVLs just CVEs I am playing the full campaign game by the way and to my knowlege they have never been on automatic control.



USSMaine -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 7:49:54 PM)

Some of the CVEs that arrive do not have intrinsic air groups - they were meant to transfer planes around the theater. Some of the CVE DO have airgroups. This is all as it should be and you are not experincing bugs or theft of aircraft



crsutton -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 7:55:16 PM)

Some do and some don't. Most come with organic squadrons. Not all CVE were used for carrier operations. Some were there to transport aircraft and some to carry spare planes for the others to use. These units did not come with any organic squadrons. Any CVE can fly carrier operations so all you need to do is find a suitable SBD, TBF or fighter (corsairs are very nice) squadron and transfer them to the CVE. You do this by forming the CVE into an air TF and then clicking on the transfer to ship button for that squadron. It is important that you do not exceed your capacity as the squadrons will not fly. In fact, the CVEs that arrive from Pearl with three squadrons on board, wildcats, dauntless and avengers are already beyond capacity and you will actually need to take one squadron off of each for the other two to work.

I generally use my CVEs with fighter squadrons only and let them fly LRCAP over invasion forces from a safe stand off range. However that is a matter of preference.



Massattack -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 8:27:38 PM)

Will the "Long Island" fly missions as long as the aircraft capacity is below its max? (I think 31). I thought I read somewhere in the forum that it only flew SBD missions. Will it fly CAP if I install a Wildcat or Corsair squadron? So far I have found it useful in the ferry role for sending short legged squadrons that arrive in Noumea to New Guinea.

Regards



crsutton -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 8:35:20 PM)

The capacity for the LI is low. You can ony use a small squadron on it. A sixteen plane SBD squadron will work nicely and can be used for ASW patrol. A 24 plane squadron will not fly.

The LI is an important ship though. My primary use for it is as a fighter ferry. Many fools waste it or send it home right away. In the early stages of the game, it might be very important to shift P39s and P40s between Brisbane and Noumea. You can only do this with a carrier as they do not have the range to fly the transfer mission. Base the LI at Brisbane, load up a squadron of land fighters and then sail the LI out as far as she can go in one turn. You can then fly your army fighters off to Noumea. Return the LI to port, rinse and repeat as necessary.

Later in the campaign you might want to send her home, but in the first few months, I find her irreplacable.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/16/2004 11:51:03 PM)

In the longer campaign you can group all of the CVEs (except the LI) in one task for and use it for invasion cover, etc. I think two of the CVEs arrive w/o organic ac. I usually just throw a VMF on them. It gives you about 85-90 f4fs for the task force.



Blitzer -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/17/2004 5:08:07 AM)

Right.

Invasion cover is usually the best use - for the Allies. As crsutton mentioned they are also useful for a/c transfer, the LI especially so, since Airacobras really don't do much good conducting endless sweeps over palm trees on New Caledonia.

The ASW option is also a good consideration, but by the time the USN gets enough CVEs to play with, Jap subs are not much of a threat. Destroyers can blow them up just fine.

The IJN on the other hand has more flexibility with CVEs. As the Japanese I make sinking US subs a high priority and a good squadron of Vals or floatplanes can clear out a fairly large area of water. Couple this tactic with an accompanying hunter/killer TF of destroyers and Allied subs will bubble to their deaths at a very satisfying rate.

I've also successfully used Jap CVEs loaded with an experienced Zero Daitai in large carrier TFs. The extra 27 fighters can make a big difference in CV clashes.



sdj420 -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/17/2004 5:15:58 AM)

Speaking of air capacity for the Long Island, the game gives it 16 plane capacity, IIRC.

I have a book called "The Campaign For Guadalcanal" by Jack Coggins and on page 56 it has a side view drawing of the LI and tech specs underneath with the following entry: "Aircraft: twenty-one".

However, in the text just 3 lines below the illustration is: "USS Long Island, ex-motorship Mormacmail, the Navy's first escort carrier, was even then leaving Suva, carrying a load of thirty-five fighters and dive bombers."

So here we have three different numbers. :)

I think the reality is that capacity depended on what type of planes and whether they were cargo loaded or were expected to take off individually for ferry missions or were expected to take off en masse for combat operations. But programming those factors would be difficult except for a simplistic rule, such as allowing double capacity for a "no take off" situation, regardless of plane type.



Blitzer -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/18/2004 5:30:13 AM)

Well that's mighty frustrating isn't it? Three different figures...yikes. I think we're stuck with the a/c capacity the designers have decided on.



Scona -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/18/2004 6:05:58 AM)

Some more CVE information. Two of them, whose names are almost impossible to spell from memory, will arrive with air groups larger than their 31 plane capacity. These ships will initially have 10 F4Fs, 18 SBDs, and 9 TBFs, none of which will fly for lack of room on the flight deck. Remove one of these groups and the F4F squadron automatically becomes 21 planes. Currently I am fielding escort groups made up of one of these CVE types with its 21 F4Fs and 9 TBFs loaded, grouped with another "flat iron" CVE carrying the 18 SBDs. Interestingly, because the SBD and TBF units are considered part of the same squadron, being identified as squadron # "a" for the SBD and # "b" for the TBF, if I check my groups on one ship and use the "Move to next Group" button on the display, it will move to the next squadron element, even though this unit is on another ship.[;)]



spence -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/18/2004 6:36:40 AM)

"Useless AVs" - I don't think so....pretty good for FT TF....Load two with supplies and drop the supply off at one of those islands NNW of Luganville then move the remaining one there and support a squadron of PBYs. Extends the searched radius considerably further up the Solomon chain than Lunga. If your opponent happens to be building up at Lunga/Tulagi you may be able to sneak up on 'im for a raid from the NNE relatively confident that his carriers aren't lurking on your flank.
You might lose an AV to a rampaging cruiser or a sub when it's hanging out like that all by itself but then again if you have the hex mined or a sub in the approaches your opponent might lose something too. Certainly the AV is expendable - The extension of the search radius might prove invaluable.



marky -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/18/2004 6:52:47 AM)

i actually did that, and caught a couple jap cruisers


both sank [:D]



Blitzer -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/18/2004 7:37:07 AM)

Yes indeed. AVs are never useless, as some players might think. The FT function is very clever - and historical. But if I see that an Allied player has placed one or more AVs in a scouting role anywhere in the Solomons, they will be sunk immediately. Mines don't worry me here, because subs cannot carry a large load and enemy MLs will receive rather brutal attention from my suface forces. As the Japs I usually leave Santa Isabel and Malaita alone, but Allied recon is one case where my destroyers will aggressively attack until all AVs are sent hissing to the bottom. Of course against the AI anything goes...[:)]



spence -> RE: CVE air groups??? (in reply to marky and blitzer) (8/18/2004 3:18:56 PM)

Covered by air search based on Nevea or one of the nearby islands (an AV) I have bombed the burgeoning shipping center around Tulagi/Lunga getting away with twice against PBEM opponents (and as often as I want against the AI). One time my flyboys caught a bunch of APs, MSWs and PC/PGs and pretty much sank the lot. The other time was much more rewarding - Yamato bombed and torpedoed and sent to the yards for 4 months, Nagato severely damaged and sent to the yards for ? but a long time, 2 CAs severely damaged and 2 CLs sunk. What's also important is that the air search picked up the Nip CVs lying in wait on two other occasions allowing me to abort the planned raid.
I would also like to add that there are lots of little islands in the Santa Cruz group that would serve as a seaplane base. The best defense against cruiser/DD/SS raiders is to stock a couple of them with a few hundred supplies and then move the AV around a bit (rotating the PBY squadrons in and out of Luganville). Every so often once can send a CV TF up that way as cover and maybe slap Mr Nippons hand while he's trying to get into the cookie jar.[:D]



crsutton -> RE: CVE air groups??? (8/19/2004 2:47:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdj420


I have a book called "The Campaign For Guadalcanal" by Jack Coggins and on page 56 it has a side view drawing of the LI and tech specs underneath with the following entry: "Aircraft: twenty-one".

However, in the text just 3 lines below the illustration is: "USS Long Island, ex-motorship Mormacmail, the Navy's first escort carrier, was even then leaving Suva, carrying a load of thirty-five fighters and dive bombers."


The LI was never used as a carrier during the Guadacanal campaign. Her only use was as a plane ferry. The term "load" is most likely referring to just that. That is, a load of planes to be delivered to a specific location. The LI was used operationally as a carrier during the Midway campaign but that was her last hurrah as a carrier.



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