RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (Full Version)

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[Poll]

POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades


I prefer upgradable aircraft with no limitations (ahistorical)
  11% (30)
I prefer upgradable aircraft with the limitations in the first post
  43% (111)
I prefer upgradable aircraft with other limitations (post in thread)
  7% (19)
I don't want any changes to the system unless they are optional!
  22% (58)
I don't want any changes to the system, period, I'm happy as is.
  14% (36)


Total Votes : 254
(last vote on : 7/23/2006 6:35:37 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

Sultanofsham -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 3:17:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

You have a game that has been released with a problem.


Once again ... utter crap ... prove it.

Between you and Zoomie somehow what is a minor "feature request" has been converted into a major show stopping bug without a single fact supporting your claims.

As the Wendies commercial says, "Where's the beef?"


Ahhh yes Frag its just me and Zoomie saying theres a problem [8|]

And once again your lying about what is being said. I never claimed it was a showstopping bug or a bug. Par for the course with you but at this point I expect nothing less.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 3:22:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Why have no one asked about Allies being forbidden to upgrade prior to May 1942? Talk about handcuffs.


Page ten of the upgrade thread:
quote:


What ticks me off is that the Singapore RAF Buffalos cant upgrade to Hurricanes till MAY but the RAAF Buffalo sqaud can upgrade to the Hurri at will in January. Didnt try them in December because they were a little busy and I didnt want to pull them out of the line till the end of Singapore.

Now the Aussies have bright shiny new Hurricanes and the RAF are screwed even though there are 50 plus Hurri's in the pool.


Try again.



McNaughton -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 3:27:46 AM)

Well, being familiar with PacWar, I frequently fought against uber-squadron building. Invariably the British and USMC Fighter Groups were all equipped with F4Us and the British with the latest USAAF Bomber. As the Japanese I changed all bomber production to Ki-49 and once the Ki-44 came out just focussed on that. No brainer, yet, since the game laced politicial pressure (IJNAF and IJAAF theory was based upon small and light fighters, RAF in Burma was low priority) some restrictions must be met.

I severely doubt that they will totally revamp the system, so that is almost a pointless suggestion.

What would be 'best' is the ability to auto select to the next historic class of aircraft (i.e., how the current system works), along with a manually change it to a 'reasonalbe' type (i.e., USAAF can only use USAAF, USMC can only use USMC, USN can only use USN [no F4Us on carriers!], RAF can only use RAF, etc.) WITH a substantial PP cost. Swaying from history, to equip a group with aircraft not intended for them should cost more PPs, as you are going against 'history', just as if you were keeping a RN ship in the Pacific that really should leave.

However, this really is an unecessary feature, same with industry meddeling. Not really worth discussion when OOB correction are much more important issues.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 3:28:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sultanofsham

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

You have a game that has been released with a problem.


Once again ... utter crap ... prove it.

Between you and Zoomie somehow what is a minor "feature request" has been converted into a major show stopping bug without a single fact supporting your claims.

As the Wendies commercial says, "Where's the beef?"


Ahhh yes Frag its just me and Zoomie saying theres a problem [8|]

And once again your lying about what is being said. I never claimed it was a showstopping bug or a bug. Par for the course with you but at this point I expect nothing less.



Your words in Red. Talk about double speak, you don't even remember your last post?

I guess problem doesn't equal bug?

Perhaps you'd care to explain, I guess my english skills are not up to snuff.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 3:32:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag


Your words in Red. Talk about double speak, you don't even remember your last post?

I guess problem doesn't equal bug?

Perhaps you'd care to explain, I guess my english skills are not up to snuff.



No problem and bug do not mean the same. If I ment bug I would have said bug. Now are you going to stop lying about what I said or what? [8|]



2ndACR -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 3:35:41 AM)

Guys, take this crap elsewhere.

We got 2 other threads for this. Or if you really want to tear into each other, go to the Steakhouse.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 3:47:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Guys, take this crap elsewhere.

We got 2 other threads for this. Or if you really want to tear into each other, go to the Steakhouse.


Sorry 2ndACR but I didnt say there was a coding error (bug) and I'm not going to let him distort what I said.



2ndACR -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 4:59:23 AM)

I understand that sir, I was talking to everyone involved.



brisd -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 5:03:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

The only change I am really interested in is that the squadrons that appear in the game should be able to upgrade to aircraft that they actually used during the war. This is not currently the case, as many squadrons that stop in the game with Oscar II actually went on to receive Tony, Tojo, and/or Frank. If a squadron was destroyed IRL with an Oscar II TOE, it should still be given an upgrade path to one of the other IJA fighters in the game, in the same way that several IJN CVs have upgrade paths which reflect improvements that would have been made had they not been sunk instead.

Edit: I voted for "other limitations"


This is my position as well. I too voted for 'other limitations', option 3. Thanks for putting it so well irrelevant! [8D]



Tanaka -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 5:10:17 AM)

Im starting to wish there had been no research/production/resource/heavy industry, etc.... included in the game. All that stuff is too freaking complicated!!! I miss just the old resupply and refuel from UV and making us work with what they had historically.



2ndACR -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 6:50:20 AM)

punt.



MadmanRick -> RE: POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades (8/17/2004 8:10:04 AM)

I say yea...with a toggle option.

Rick



BoerWar -> RE: POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades (8/17/2004 8:24:26 AM)

I don't mind a flexible system, but if you add it there need to be political ramifications and internal resistance. The Brewster and Nate producers of the world don't give up thier contracts without a fight.



2ndACR -> RE: POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades (8/17/2004 11:02:56 AM)

another punt.



Chris21wen -> RE: POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades (8/17/2004 11:19:47 AM)

Note only the Japanese but also USMC to USMC
Brits to Brits etc



Chris21wen -> RE: POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades (8/17/2004 11:25:39 AM)

Its only the ability to upgrade/downgrade that needs changing not the research, that already factored in so the political ramifications are already there although they might need a tweek.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 12:08:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude
This all seems kind of silly. When the Japanese were designing the new plane models, they didn't know beforehand how they would work out. Maybe if the player was blind as to what the end result would be, it would make sense to have ahistorical upgrades. Then maybe you pour a lot of resources into one design and it ends up that the plane is a real stinker. Or you get lucky and plane really flies well.

Otherwise the current system of pushing or delaying historical plane models by a few months seems best. You already know which planes are the better ones vs those that didn't work out too well. You can use this knowledge to give the Japanese a little lift.
Yes and no. Take the Ki-44. The requirements set out by the Japanese Army were not initially reached, so the design team made some modifications so that the aircraft would meet or at least come close to requirements.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 12:41:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, I find the entire debate amusing for 1 reason. I doubt anyone here posting in favor of change has ever reached a point where...
7 Dec. 1941 is where the problem starts. You know you won’t be allowed to choose which group gets Tony’s and Tojo’s so you have to preplan the movement of specific groups based on upgrade paths. You also have to determine how many groups will use these aircraft and match production to this figure.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 1:01:54 PM)

I voted for option (2), but would add the caveat that I'd like it to be a switchable option as well: I have no interst or intention of upsetting people who like the system as it is and see no reason to change.

Steve.



Hortlund -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 4:04:04 PM)

If you include an upgrade system, you need to include the possibility to upgrade your aircraft. I thought that went without saying.

You cant have dead-ends for airunits like you do now, you are putting the player through micromanagement hell already as Japan having to keep track of a gazillion convoys and factories and resources and engines and pilots and whatever, so you include all that, and you let the player build what kind of aircraft he wants...but you wont let the player upgrade his units beyond some hardcoded invisible path?

Its just illogical, and it removes almost all of the incentives to spend time with the production/research aspect of the game.



Apollo11 -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 4:27:56 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

well i guess it's no secret which one i picked..... [:'(]


I am 100% for idea "Nikademus "posted...


Leo "Apollo11"



WiTP_Dude -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 4:53:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude
This all seems kind of silly. When the Japanese were designing the new plane models, they didn't know beforehand how they would work out. Maybe if the player was blind as to what the end result would be, it would make sense to have ahistorical upgrades. Then maybe you pour a lot of resources into one design and it ends up that the plane is a real stinker. Or you get lucky and plane really flies well.

Otherwise the current system of pushing or delaying historical plane models by a few months seems best. You already know which planes are the better ones vs those that didn't work out too well. You can use this knowledge to give the Japanese a little lift.
Yes and no. Take the Ki-44. The requirements set out by the Japanese Army were not initially reached, so the design team made some modifications so that the aircraft would meet or at least come close to requirements.


I think the best way to measure historical plane performance is how did the bulk of planes fly in the war. If the Ki-44 performed well, then that is how it should be modeled in the game.

However, if WiTP is to take an ahistorical path, then it seems fair that the performance data not be known before hand by players. That's right, blind. Then you can decide if you want to scatter your resources around or put it all in only a few planes.

Otherwise you'd just put all of your research resources into the planes you know will be the best and forget about the rest.



DrewMatrix -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 5:44:51 PM)

quote:

However, if WiTP is to take an ahistorical path, then it seems fair that the performance data not be known before hand by players.


Here here! The P-39 went into production because people thought it was a good, innovative design. They didn't know ahead it would perform poorly then decide not to waste resources actually building them.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 5:45:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Yes I agree now is the time to lobby for The Med game. Can I suggest a title?
"A War that never actualy happened but is played in the Med about the same time as WWII occured"

I'm not sending My Afrika Korps out with Pz-II and III I'm building Tigers


Crucial question is:

Will the Italians get to upgrade all their Stormos to their native version of Me-262 (Macchi 262) by mid-43? [:D]

O.



mogami -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 5:53:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

quote:

However, if WiTP is to take an ahistorical path, then it seems fair that the performance data not be known before hand by players.


Here here! The P-39 went into production because people thought it was a good, innovative design. They didn't know ahead it would perform poorly then decide not to waste resources actually building them.



Hi Did you know the USA sent over 4700 P39/400 to the Soviets? The Soviets used over 3200 of these in combat. They even had a female ace who flew nothing but P-39. They did not use them just as ground attack aircraft but mostly as low level intercepters. (A P-39/400 was a terror to Stuka pilots)

In WITP watch the fun when P-39/400 intercept unescorted Japanese bombers. (Not just below 10k but at any altitude)



BartM -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 6:18:02 PM)

I voted for #3, though #2 works, as I stated earlier, with exceptions.

The upgrade paths should still involve the actual upgrades of some units that had to fill out new units comming in... example would be the bolo's some went to B-25s, some went to B-17s while others were kinda split up to various new air groups. As long as we can keep thos historical upgrades in, with the #2 option (the first post of this thread), I really do not see a problem with it



Lemurs! -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 6:33:53 PM)

Hi all,

That is my pet plane!

What American aircraft achieved the losest per combat sortie loss rate in WW2? The P39!

Mike



Banquet -> RE: Solution to UPGRADE question. (8/17/2004 7:21:37 PM)

I voted for option 2.

I couldn't give a hoot about research, or getting aircraft sooner than they were available. Scrap research for all I care. I just want the ability to do what the Japanese did.. to choose where to deploy my replacement aircraft.

Having something like that set in stone is fine for a short scale wargame, but for anything simulating 5 years of war across such a massive front it's too limiting.



pyaeen -> RE: POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades (8/17/2004 7:26:34 PM)

Good solution![:D]



Jaws_slith -> RE: POLL: Solution to Aircraft Upgrades (8/17/2004 10:32:02 PM)

Will this mean we can choose the aircraft we want at the factory too[&:]



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