Name This...(148) (Full Version)

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Brady -> Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 1:45:30 AM)

???







[img]http://www.myphotodrive.com//uploads/686_148.jpg[/img]



Desertdaddy -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 2:02:26 AM)

USS Yorktown, Mid afternoon 4 June 42, during battle of Midway. Photo taken from one of the escorts.



timtom -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 2:07:01 AM)

Damn...beat me to it...couldda been my first



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 2:24:05 AM)

Yes..the Yorktown. I think the picture shows the Yorktown taking a torpedo hit from on of the 33 Kates in the second wave. She is already damaged from 3 bomb hits and the crash of a Val into her deck earlier in the day and was only able to make about 20 kts at the time.


What is that splash to the right in the picture.....? AA fire hitting the water..?



cyberwop36 -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 3:54:53 AM)

"Mandrake my boy, remember you presicous bodily fluids"

a man's essence comes from having pure bodily fluids

Feed me ammo Mandrake.

i love that movie



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 4:07:58 AM)

5" shells make large clouds.



dtravel -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 4:09:25 AM)

Another opportunity for me to make a snarky comment. [:D]

(Although I was going to say Yorktown at Midway also, but too many others beat me to it.)



RUPD3658 -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 4:24:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

5" shells make large clouds.

But in the shape of a plus sign (+)? Looks almost like a Baka on a attack run. Didn't the photographer clean his lens?



tsimmonds -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 3:39:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

5" shells make large clouds.

But in the shape of a plus sign (+)? Looks almost like a Baka on a attack run. Didn't the photographer clean his lens?

This photo took several seconds to load, from the top down as usual. I thought the uppermost flak bursts looked familiar, but the moment I saw the "+", I knew what photo it was.[:)]



Rainerle -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 3:58:42 PM)

Actually the first one I would have known [:D]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 4:42:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Actually the first one I would have known [:D]


Phht..I could tell from the top of the first cloud BEFORE the first flak burst [:'(]



Belisarius -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 4:46:22 PM)

Almost too easy.

The splash is interesting. Torpedo? Bomb? Shell? Debris? Aircraft going down?



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/17/2004 5:17:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

Almost too easy.

The splash is interesting. Torpedo? Bomb? Shell? Debris? Aircraft going down?



Dont think its a torpedo as there is black smoke in the splash..most likely AAA fire as there are splashes in the distance that appear to be in line. Could be a plane going in to the drink though. Dont think its a bomb as this appears to be the Kate attack on the already damaged Yorktown (note list and smoke).

Would a AAA round with a timed fuse detonate like that if it hit the water? I dont know.



Brady -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 6:00:34 AM)

USS Yorktown, it is[:)]



spence -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 6:15:02 AM)

That big splash to the right looks very much like a 5" shell splash.

Would that be the Kate that dropped the torpedo which is hitting Yorktown in the
distance above and slightly right of Yorktown between the two flak bursts? (Looks almost like another plane above that one and farther away).



Belisarius -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 10:26:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

That big splash to the right looks very much like a 5" shell splash.

Would that be the Kate that dropped the torpedo which is hitting Yorktown in the
distance above and slightly right of Yorktown between the two flak bursts? (Looks almost like another plane above that one and farther away).


Wouldn't know if it's the Kate, but it's very likely to be a Kate at least.

"The other" plane is probably a dust speck. But the first you mention is certainly an aircraft.



von Murrin -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 10:34:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

That big splash to the right looks very much like a 5" shell splash.

Would that be the Kate that dropped the torpedo which is hitting Yorktown in the
distance above and slightly right of Yorktown between the two flak bursts? (Looks almost like another plane above that one and farther away).


Highly likely. I can't remember which book has the account, but I remember reading descriptions of the escorts attempting to fire 5" and 8" shells into the water directly in front of attacking Kates because they were flying so low. I really want to say Miracle at Midway, but I can't remember to save my life.



Belisarius -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 11:26:07 AM)

Am I the only one who finds 5" a bit large for Kate shooting? [&:]

I mean, it's fine for level bombers, but can they really be fast enough for tracking an attack aircraft bearing down on you?



von Murrin -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 11:39:27 AM)

Well, there's no proximity fuze at that moment, but wouldn't you rather try?[:D]



tsimmonds -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 2:41:41 PM)

quote:

I mean, it's fine for level bombers, but can they really be fast enough for tracking an attack aircraft bearing down on you?

If an aircraft is "bearing down on you", there is very little tracking involved. The plane is heading towards you, pointing at you. It is coming closer, but there is almost no deflection. The only good thing about being the target.....



Belisarius -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 2:54:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

I mean, it's fine for level bombers, but can they really be fast enough for tracking an attack aircraft bearing down on you?

If an aircraft is "bearing down on you", there is very little tracking involved. The plane is heading towards you, pointing at you. It is coming closer, but there is almost no deflection. The only good thing about being the target.....


Hm. Unless it's perfectly aligned with the barrels, I guess the fire coordinator will get his palms sweaty nonetheless trying to get new coordinates down to the turret.

Like shooting pigeons with a catapult



Barlock -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 3:46:55 PM)

As one of my sergeants used to say:

"The only useless weapon is the one that isn't fired in the general direction of the enemy"

Still - it'd be preferable if that weapon had a better than reasonable chance of actually hitting something [:D]



Belisarius -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 4:09:32 PM)

But it's easy to picture the reaction of the pilot, should a 5" ever strike home:

"LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THAT--*"

[:D]



strawbuk -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 4:18:33 PM)

Actually I thought it was policy to drop heavy shells, 5in plus,on purpose into the water at a certain distance (presumably at reasonable torp drop range) to dissuade low flyers ie a sort of waterspout curtain barrage rather than aiming at anything?



spence -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 4:27:01 PM)

(in reply to Belisarius)

The 5"/25 cal and 5"/38 cal dual purpose guns were the standard heavy AAA for naval ships in the 40's (and for some, like us poor Coasties, into the 80's). At the beginning of WW2, they fired a semi armor piercing shell known as AA Common with a
manually set time fuze. Essentially this was effective against aircraft flying straight and level (as a barrage) or if it actually hit the plane. It was also the same shell used in surface engagements. In the latter part of 1942 the "VT" proximity-fuzed shell was introduced. This one carried a miniature radar transponder that detonated the shell at it's closest point of approach to its intended target. I'm not sure of this but I believe that there was also some mechanism to direct the majority of the fragments from the shell in the general direction of the target As a result the 5"/38 cal became very deadly against a/c - particularly those attacking your own ship since that is essentially a no deflection shot. In what I believe was it's first use at the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands, the South Dakota splashed 25 out of 27 bombers from Junyo even though they weren't even detected until they had begun their attack runs.
Although the VT shell was available to the US Army its use was prohibited over land up until the Battle of the Bulge so that the Germans wouldn't get ahold of it. It was finally employed against attacking infantry on Elsenborn Ridge I believe with devastating results. The shell's VT fuses caused them to explode at 3-5m over the ground.

From what I understand the introduction of the VT shell is NOT modelled in this game or in UV but I guess the Nips have enough handicaps without adding another one. In UV, in 1943, every time I assign a squadron to antiship attack I write the squadron off as expended. Unless the squadron jumps some poor minesweep or LCI all by itself then the squadron is pretty much used up due to the losses from the flak.

BTW the Japanese produced an 18.1" equivalent to AA Common which Yamato and Musashi both used against a/c in their final sorties. I wonder how well they worked?[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



Capt Cliff -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 9:34:25 PM)

Minor correction on the VT fuse. I believe the Germans already had one and they used used against the Russians in 43 or 44, I beleive. But the Russians, thru the Swiss embassy, told the Germans to stop using it or they (the Russians) would start using gas. The Germans stopped. I got this from an ex-panzer grendadier who fought in WWII. Whether the German design was similar to the US design I don't know, it may have used air pressure. The US used it in the Bulge to hold the northern shoulder. Without the fuse 6th SS PZ army would have been turned lose instead of having to follow 5th PZ army out.
FYI!



UncleBuck -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 9:41:38 PM)

One other minor thing, I beleive the land use of the VT shell caused it to explode at 30 m every time. This was optimum for swatting those infantry guys. It was high enough to cause great dispursion of the fragments, but close enough that it was still plenty powerful. I also beleive that it was only used in guns 105 mm or larger. (4.1") Something to do with teh size of the VT fuse itself.

UB



spence -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 9:42:31 PM)

(in response to Capt Cliff)

Never heard of a German "VT" fuze. Would seem that they might have found such a thing useful for the air defense of the Reich Homeland where I'm sure its effectiveness would have been noted. In all that I have read I have heard no mention of it though in either German or Allied sources.



spence -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/18/2004 9:48:27 PM)

(also in response to Capt Cliff)

And so the Germans agreed not to use their "VT" fuze (?) and the Russians agreed not to use gas and the war on the Russian Front remained quite civilized. OOOOOOOOOOOOK.



panda124c -> RE: Name This...(148) (8/19/2004 4:59:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strawbuk

Actually I thought it was policy to drop heavy shells, 5in plus,on purpose into the water at a certain distance (presumably at reasonable torp drop range) to dissuade low flyers ie a sort of waterspout curtain barrage rather than aiming at anything?

It was a common tactic used against torpedo bombers you put up a wall of water using non-AA type guns. The idea being that a torpedo bomber had to make a slow, low approach to it's drop point if it hit the water column it would stall (low and slow) if the splash hit the bomber the pilot would loose control with no altitude to recover. You put the wall just before where you thought the drop point would be, very un-nerving to the pilots too. My dad mentioned doing this with the main guns on the USS Arkansas. Serveral books on torpedo bombers I have read mentioned this tatic. I guess the best ship for this would be the Brooklyn class Light Crusiers 15 6" Guns on rapid fire now that's a wall of water.[:D]



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