Looking 4 a DECENT Map EDITOR (Full Version)

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campekenobi -> Looking 4 a DECENT Map EDITOR (2/7/2002 10:47:00 PM)

Is there any powerful (meaning more graphics choices than SPWAW Editor yet as easy to use) Map Editor for SPWAW? I looked at the infamous one from Fred Chlanda & it was NOT user friendly at all. I think the one w/ the game is fine, I just want a little more flexibility on graphics (like making bridges, scout towers, airplanes on ground, etc.) Please help.



Wild Bill -> (2/8/2002 6:26:00 AM)

Nothing that I know of, my friend. Sorry...WB



Don Doom -> (2/8/2002 7:52:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Sniper-for-hire:
Is there any powerful (meaning more graphics choices than SPWAW Editor yet as easy to use) Map Editor for SPWAW? I looked at the infamous one from Fred Chlanda & it was NOT user friendly at all. I think the one w/ the game is fine, I just want a little more flexibility on graphics (like making bridges, scout towers, airplanes on ground, etc.) Please help.

Where to begin
first you have to use either PSP7 or Iconforge to make the graphic you want in 88x88 or 104x104 and save in .bmp format then use freds shp editor. As with all graphic editor there is a learning curve. But once learned it is easy. Just follow the steps in the help or manual section I forgot which.
Once you have a bmp file use freds to convert to a shp file, then find the user terxxzX file. I also forgot you have to make four shp files for terXXzX files or one file for iconxxx.shp file.
terxxz1 is 120 max,terxxz2 is 150, Terxxz3 is 180, Terxxz4 is 88x106.
Then you have to incert the graphic to loction in the ter file.
Then you can use it in the user define section.
This is a very brief overview on how it is done. Have fun.



Don Doom -> (2/8/2002 8:03:00 AM)

Actualy Freds programs are like any other software, that is there is a learning curve. once learn they are all easy to use.



ubertechie -> (2/8/2002 4:09:00 PM)

Personally when i am building a map (and i admit that compared to some i am a real newbie at this) I start with the shoreline if there is one - then i put in the hills and then the roads. Then i stop and save it twice - one as a backup as the editor doesnt have a undo (if it does PLEASE let me know someone). Then its time for things like cliffs, rocks, mud, swamp and rough terrain - these make the hard edges of hills and flat area's blend together and are usefull for restricting movement through a area. Then its time for buildings - here personally i only use the small stone and wooden buildings unless i specifically need a large buildign e.g. a church. Then i add woods and hedges - after this i deploy troops for the scenario and playtest it. Then i tweak the map as appropriate to correctthings i have noticed. Then i add final touches like text and thatshould be it. It might not be the best way but thats how i do it - the most imoprtant thing is patience and not to try and do it all in one go - it often helps to do it in 30 minute stretches.
Cheers Ubertechie



campekenobi -> (2/8/2002 8:55:00 PM)

Thanks all, And Mr. Doom is right... I'm sure if I took more TIME looking at that program then I would certainly figure it out, I'm just always looking for the easy & quick way. And as far as the "UNDO" feature, I've been doing the same thing; SAVING as I go



richmonder -> (2/8/2002 9:00:00 PM)

Speaking o' cliffs, just what are the requirements for getting a hill to go into cliff status? I have trouble with it.



TheZel66 -> (2/8/2002 11:05:00 PM)

take a look at wild bill's lessons in the SPWAW Thread Hall o Fame... answers alot of questions..



campekenobi -> (2/8/2002 11:14:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by richmonder:
Speaking o' cliffs, just what are the requirements for getting a hill to go into cliff status? I have trouble with it.
I agree w/ you Rich, I'm on a snow map in WINTER mode, when I try to make cliffs, they look more like sand or dirt.



ubertechie -> (2/8/2002 11:50:00 PM)

richmonder - in my experience the hill has to be a level 3 one - i cant seem to get anything else to convert into a cliff Cheers Ubertechie



Redleg -> (2/9/2002 3:00:00 AM)

A cliff will print on most any slope.
Certain mixtures of terrain features may cause strange outcomes so it is sometimes necessary to experiment a bit.



campekenobi -> (2/9/2002 3:18:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Redleg:
A cliff will print on most any slope.
Certain mixtures of terrain features may cause strange outcomes so it is sometimes necessary to experiment a bit.
What's to EXPERIMENT with? I've got a WINTER map, I've made a hill, I add CLIFF, and it's ROCKY/sandy-looking, not like a SNOW cliff would look like... I even tried different terrain choices (SUMMER, etc.).... no difference.



RockinHarry -> (2/10/2002 1:31:00 AM)

Hey you "cliffhangers"
In order to get cliffs working other than in the SPWAW ingame map editor, try using Freds Map Editor instead! With this fine little program you can assign individual terrain statistics to any hexes and have also any terrain shape graphic combined with it! Simply download my Freds Map Edit Document from my signature below and check the S8 Byte tables! YouŽll be surprised what youŽll can do with Freds program!
________
Harry (LINK --> RIGHT CLICK --> Save TARGET AS....!!)



campekenobi -> (2/11/2002 11:11:00 PM)

I appreciate that Harry, but if you read earlier up (or maybe it was in another thread), I found his program to have a very difficult learning curve... I guess I like the more no-nonsense click & drag programs.... I opened his up & it was like using an abacus to do my tax return.



David boutwell -> (2/11/2002 11:59:00 PM)

Personally, I enjoy making maps more than I like playing scenarios. I've probably spent 30 or more hours on some of my maps. So many of the maps that I see done for this game make no sense because people are in too much of a hurry to use it that they don't pay attention to the finer details that seperate a good map from one that I delete after looking at it once. I'll give some examples of what I'm talking about...First, some people make the mistake of using buildings from the wrong continent (North-African Bizaars in the middle of a French city). They use road layouts that would be the nightmare of any city planner, as well as lay out roads that go nowhere (who builds roads in that manner in reality?) They use the same buildings over and over again, or all in a row (the only place you would see that is in a modern American subdivision, not in a European city with 300-400 years of building and rebuilding). They lay out rivers and streams with no logic to the drainage patterns or lay down hills and terrain with no attention to erosional patterns, etc. Being an Earth Science teacher who teaches, among many other things, map reading, topography, land features, etc., I know that attention to the above details identifies a map whose maker knew what they were doing. The key is to make a map after having first done your research. After you find a detailed map of the area (which may take time and occasionally a little money), determine how the scale of the map translates into SPWAW scale and create a grid for your map that will allow you to create accurate distances between points in your SPWAW map. Then, allow yourself plenty of time to work on section after section , paying attention to the details. When you are done, your map should look like an aerial recon photo of the eactual location. Fred's editor is the Holy Grail of map editing. I know how to use it because I want to do the things that it can do. If the design of your map is not as high priority for you as playing the scenario, then you'll not want to spend the time that it takes to learn how to use it. It's just like things in real life. My father doesn't use a computer because, in his mind, the uses that he would use it for is not worth the time it would take to learn how to use it. Regards, Davud Boutwell



campekenobi -> (2/12/2002 12:11:00 AM)

Well that pretty much sums it up: "Being an Earth Science teacher who teaches, among many other things, map reading, topography, land features, etc.," and if I were a war vet playing this game I would spend hours complaining about how unrealistic certain situations in the game are, etc... but hey, to each his own; I'm a gamer and I happen to have creative talents as well, so when I want to build a map, I want it to LOOK COOL and be a FUN MAP, not a geographic reality down to the blade of grass. I'm not trying to offend, I'm just merely defending those who fear to tred into deep waters of learning sometimes... it's all a matter of PRIORITIZING... and for the little TIME I have to play, I'm not going to spend in the library trying to find the exact shade of shingle from a rooftop in Berlin.



David boutwell -> (2/12/2002 7:45:00 AM)

Snipe, So, what does a COOL map look like? I'd like to see what you are referring to. This is a game that portrays battles that took place on REAL ground. This isn't Orcs and Humans. A COOL map should look like a real place that can be recognized as a real place, not Middle Earth. I'm not sure what a FUN MAP is. When I think of "fun maps", I think of something that teen-aged fantasy gamers post to the Age of Empires forum. Why do so many people have so much FUN with the flight sims of real locations? Because in their "Top Gun" fantasies, they'd like to fly around REAL LOCATIONS. Sure, one could feasibly have a flight Sim where they fly over the Grand Canyon lined by all of the buildings in the world over 150 stories.... To me, a "fun map" would be a "dead-on-balls-accurate map of Stalingrad, or Caen, or Cherbourg, or St. Lo., to name a few, because I'd be getting a history lesson while I was playing the game, and not just being entertained. And If we are talking prioritizing or time, I've got a three DAY old and a two-year old, but I'm still here defending my viewpoint, and I'm still painting those individual blades of grass in my most current Market Garden campaign map. I'm not trying to offend either, but i don't know how many scenarios that I've downloaded because their title held so much potential, but ended up trashing because their maps resembled the work of the map-making routine on drugs. If everyone else that has been in here as long as I have and longer can find a soap box and stand on it every once in a while, so can I. Now here's something I bet you'd like to do, but TIME probably wouldn't allow, but FRED'S EDITOR would. How about overlapping maps? Try accurately reproducing part of one map onto another. With Fred's program, I linked about six or seven maps together to create all of the battlefields surrounding Bastogne. Look on one map, and you see Marvie and Mageret. Look on another map...exact same village of Mageret PLUS Longvilly.... Regards, David Boutwell



David boutwell -> (2/12/2002 8:12:00 AM)

Sniper, Did you ever find that book on German roof tiles? I might want to use that book one of these days. I wonder what color of slate they used in Berlin, and what quarry it came from. Once I find out, I'll have to use Fred's program to edit or change a building icon to accurately represent Berlin buildings with the correct color of tile. Or did they use imported ceramic from their axis ally Italy??? David Boutwell



Dogfish -> (2/12/2002 8:55:00 AM)

Hey David: Don't get discouraged... your maps reflect all the effort that you put into them. In fact all the maps I've seen, reflect the effort put forth by the map maker. You mentioned overlapping maps. This is on my list of things to try. Have you thought about using these in a campaign, with a program that one runs at the end of each scenario. The program would subtract the correct ammount from each of the X,Y values, placing the units on the new map exactly where the player left them on the old map. I think this can be done. On a small scale it would keep you from seeing the terrain so far ahead and picking likely targets for your arty. Alot of thinking would have to be done, such as what to do with units so far back so to be off the new map? Place them at rally point, on edge of new map? I haven't even tried to make a map, because I would want it to be the best I could possible make, and the time involved for that keeps it pretty far down on my list.



campekenobi -> (2/12/2002 10:14:00 AM)

Hey David, your points are well taken... and your roof shingle sarcasm was deserved so we're even. I have 2 kids myself, I guess I just don't find enough time, but I'm sure if I got past the learning curve I'd spend more time making maps & less time chatting in this forum I'll give it another chance some day, maybe when I'm home sick... well, actually my wife puts me to work then, so, whatever, I'll try it out. And as far as your 'middle earth' comment & orcs vs humans, I read that w/ a smile because I actually love Warcraft. Perhaps that's what's so rewarding about the Panthers series; it can be enjoyed on simple gaming levels, yet still satisfy the purists. Sniper out.



David boutwell -> (2/12/2002 11:18:00 AM)

Cheers, Sniper Nothing like a bit of heated debate that ends well. You are definitely right about this game. I'll bet the gaming industry is thanking their lucky stars that most gamers aren't Steel Panthers fans. This game, thanks to the Matrix guys and those that preceded them, such as editor pioneers like Jim Bello, has had so much staying power with the serious SP players that the game manufacturers would have gone out of business for lack of sales in the last five years. Granted, I've bought other games (Campaign series games, Shogun, Cossacks, Age of Empires series), but I keep coming right back (in a very short amount of time) to SP. The book publishing industry has definitely benefitted from this game, though. I've bought many a book just to research a scenario. In fact, in the last month, I've bought three books on the US airborne portion of Market Garden, just for research material. Hell, I bought Major and Mrs. Holt's tour of the Market Garden Battlefields on the day my second daughter was born, right after I bought my wife flowers! Am I a purist? Damned right! I'm a map purist. I believe it is purists that provide the long-term foundation of this community, whether they be purist from the OoB area, the penetration/impact angle crowd, the editor guys like Fred Chlanda and Rockin'Harry, or the icon guys like Mike Amos, just to name a few. It takes guys who are nuts about their particular favorite area to have moved this game forward to where it is today. Just go back and load Steel Panthers I onto your computer, If your computer will run it, to see how far it has come. Remember, Grey tanks represented Germans and neon green represented US forces. If there weren't people who weren't anal retentive about authenticity and detail in a lot of different areas, we'd still be there. No, we wouldn't because we'd all be playing something else by now. And, yes, Fred Chlanda and his editor is one of the foundation stones of this community. I remember when I first checked out Fred's programs. I thought, "What in the heck is this???". When you figure out what you can do with it, you'll look at it in a whole new light. So, since you're into Warcraft and SPWAW, when are they going to come out with a game that allows us to play the War of the Rings in one big, turn-based, 2,000 x 2,000 hex map, multi-player campaign? Regards, David Boutwell



RockinHarry -> (2/12/2002 10:40:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Sniper-for-hire:
I appreciate that Harry, but if you read earlier up (or maybe it was in another thread), I found his program to have a very difficult learning curve... I guess I like the more no-nonsense click & drag programs.... I opened his up & it was like using an abacus to do my tax return.
yes,..youŽre right on this and Freds programs have some difficult learning curve. Unfortunately theyŽre the only ones available for map tweaking. Maybe someday Fred Chlanda will update the Map Editor, although this may take a very long time! (..due to his stroke last year) Did send him a huge "improvement wish list" last year, believe me! We can be glad that Fred is back to programming work a little bit. _________
Harry



El Vito -> (2/13/2002 11:20:00 AM)

My eyes glaze over when I try to figure out the map editors. I gave up long ago. Just wanted to quickly change the victory hex values and/or start lines on custom maps but it ain't happenin



David boutwell -> (2/13/2002 11:55:00 AM)

El Vito, I know you don't want to hear this, or maybe you do, but those are very simple tasks that are found in the Deploy menu. To change victory hex values, all you have to do is click on "Edit Victory Objectives". To change start lines, you click on the two little green flags in the bottom left of your deploy menu. And make sure you save! Or else you'll get the impression that you didn't do it right, when you just didn't save the changes. It happens when you are learning the ropes. Believe me and everyone else in here. Regards, David Boutwell



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