RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (Full Version)

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Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/20/2004 9:24:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
It seems rather illogical to say it's ok for Japan but not ok for the Allies. Japan's production was a very small fraction of the USA. Japan improving 10% of her GNP should be balanced by a 100%+ increase in the Allies.
[:D]

I have not played the game out to 1944/45, so this is just speculation on my part... [;)]

USA get 100% increase.... so what! Historically the US had more equipment than could be fielded, and hopefully that is modeled in the game. Doubling the number of P-47 the US has in the pool form 5,000 to 10,000 is going to make much of a difference.

Just my guess. [;)]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/20/2004 3:45:17 PM)

quote:

USA get 100% increase.... so what! Historically the US had more equipment than could be fielded, and hopefully that is modeled in the game. Doubling the number of P-47 the US has in the pool form 5,000 to 10,000 is going to make much of a difference.


Does that not go directly against everything said in the aircraft thread? Why the separate standard for Allies?

What happened to "I have them so I must be able to use them?" [&:]



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 7:00:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
quote:

USA get 100% increase.... so what! Historically the US had more equipment than could be fielded, and hopefully that is modeled in the game. Doubling the number of P-47 the US has in the pool form 5,000 to 10,000 is going to make much of a difference.


Does that not go directly against everything said in the aircraft thread? Why the separate standard for Allies?

What happened to "I have them so I must be able to use them?" [&:]

I don’t recall saying that or calling for separate standards.

I did say in the aircraft thread that I should be allowed to choice which group gets to upgrade; and I also said eliminate research and fix production to historical levels would be ok too. I have no problem with the Allied player picking which group get P-47s vs P-51s either.

Where do you see separate standards?



Charles2222 -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 7:28:13 PM)

From a purist standpoint I can always understand wanting to have the same control for both sides, but most of us probably think that when a system is perfected there shouldn't be incentive to mess with it. IOW, as far as the USA in PTO's production goes, the only thing you could do with it is mess it up, make it worse, so what would be the point of allowing that?

Hmm, just thought about something though. It's maybe actually best this way, overall. Why? Because if playing without having to worry about prodcution is such a big thing, you have the Allies. If you want to tinker you have the Japanese. It does make sense though, that if you did restrict only one side to tinkering it should be the historic loser.

This isn't good, of course, for the Allied player who never wants to play as Japan but still wants to tinker.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 8:17:17 PM)

I agree with you Von.[:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonmoltke

I don't think either side should have control over their production, but I seem to be in a smaller minority than those who want both sides to control it. [:D]



pasternakski -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 8:38:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

I agree with you Von.[:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonmoltke

I don't think either side should have control over their production, but I seem to be in a smaller minority than those who want both sides to control it. [:D]



I also agree. The game intended to put you into the role of strategic military (including logistical) command, not political or economic command, with the goal of making the most of what you were given. That's the game I wanted, but the drift has been toward (a) turning the player's role into something entirely different and (b) pandering to those who want the game bastardized to give the Japanese an ahistorical chance to win the war (not just the game).

I pretty much remain silent because I got tired a long time ago of getting into fruitless arguments with people who just don't understand the game design or, for that matter, wargaming in general. I think the reality is that you are in agreement with a much larger segment of Matrix's wargaming market than these forums would lead you to believe.



Charles2222 -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 9:00:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

I agree with you Von.[:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonmoltke

I don't think either side should have control over their production, but I seem to be in a smaller minority than those who want both sides to control it. [:D]



I also agree. The game intended to put you into the role of strategic military (including logistical) command, not political or economic command, with the goal of making the most of what you were given. That's the game I wanted, but the drift has been toward (a) turning the player's role into something entirely different and (b) pandering to those who want the game bastardized to give the Japanese an ahistorical chance to win the war (not just the game).

I pretty much remain silent because I got tired a long time ago of getting into fruitless arguments with people who just don't understand the game design or, for that matter, wargaming in general. I think the reality is that you are in agreement with a much larger segment of Matrix's wargaming market than these forums would lead you to believe.


I'm not so sure one can say in the same breath, that they choose the classic wargaming mode, when I thought that was largely defined by Gary Grigsby anyway, and then talk of altering things as being some misnomer. Most of Gary's games involve altering productuin in some form, so you can't be too totally outside the scope of computer wargaming when so much that's been any good over the years has come from Gary.

For my part, I understand someone who might want these monster games, to have no part with altering things, if for no other reason than to do it differently, but I still prefer some altering to be done. As far as Gary goes, wanting altered production is already a portion of his sort of game, so to not understand that, or buy it and want something else is not to understand his design.



mogami -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 9:59:04 PM)

Hi, Japanese production is include because it is a target and is continued function is what the Japanese player is fighting the war for. USA production for the most part lies beyond Japans abilty to attack. (There are portions Japan can attack if they so desire but they will never be able to impact more then a portion of USA production.

USA production has been automated. All USA ship building programs are accelerated.
USA aircraft production meets or exceeds the demand of their airgroups. (It takes a while to come on line) But everything is maxium production. Still what arrives in WITP is only 30 percent of what the USA is actually producing. (Higher of course concerning ships and USMC equipment)

There is nothing really for the USA player to do except use what is given to him.

The Japanese player has to make choices because at some point should the USA player be meeting his war objectives the Japanese player is going to see it impacting his production.
To have Japanese production rigid and based solely on history would remove it as a factor in the game. The Japanese player had to have freedom in production to allow for the war to follow the in game events. The problem lies in that much of his production is still tied to history. Airgroups arrive by date and type according to the historic demand and his LCU are provided according to history. (There are a great many LCU in the Japanese early arrival that are not historic. They arrive early and the Japanese player can decide whether to build them or not and at what rate by what he does to his production. If he decides not to build them they will sit at 10-32 percent TOE forever)
Japan can modify the composition of their airforce by disbanding and not reforming airgroups. If they choose to try to maintain an airforce larger then historic they will be forced into using aircraft types they might wish to discontinue. Here is where the Japanese player are voicing their desire for more freedom. If it does not adversly impact the AI then I say let them.

A totally free production system does not seem hard to me to design for the Japanese. You just could not use it for Japanese AI. Throw everything back into the pools and let the Japanese player go from zero. Only items in production at wars start would be in the starting reinforcemet schedule. After that every ship, LCU, Aircraft would have to be began by the player. Using his resources and industry would be what limited his production. This would require data files for every scenario where Japanese production is included. We have time, we have editors all we need is new code and menus to allow it.

(Then WITP would truely be a Japanese fanboys wet dream. )



Charles2222 -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 10:26:41 PM)

Good explanation, only I think many like myself would still like some sort of structure and then alter it to some degree instead. If I start out from zero I have no idea what the historic was, and thereby unwittingly I might make the force composition very unhistoric and may not really want that. I couldn't, for example, tell you how many historic Zero squadrons there were for the life of me.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 10:28:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
…The game intended to put you into the role of strategic military (including logistical) command, not political or economic command…

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

How can you successfully model the Japanese Empire that went to war to secure economic resources without including Japanese production?

Political Points – Some troops are restricted in deployment. Australian troops must be release from home defense, for instance, before they can be shipped off to fight in New Guinea. And, Admirals can’t be everywhere, at once. Each day, each player accumulates political points which can be used to reassign assets to the various headquarters or to change leaders.

Japanese Production – Groups cannot fly without planes, ships need to be built and tanks have to come from somewhere. The Japanese player will never have enough industry to build all he needs. He can choose to increase the size of factories or change what they are building at the cost of retooling. He can also speed up or retard the building of specific ships to the possible detriment of the shipbuilding schedule. He will need oil and resources to make industry run and will want to capture locations with such materials as quickly as possible. Much of this gathering can be automated, but the player will be able to fine tune the procedure or manually order the loading and destination of his ships.
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
…, with the goal of making the most of what you were given. That's the game I wanted, but the drift has been toward (a) turning the player's role into something entirely different and (b) pandering to those who want the game bastardized to give the Japanese an ahistorical chance to win the war (not just the game)…

I never understood this philosophy for a game of the scope. Who care?! I want the best modeling possible so I can enjoy the system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
I pretty much remain silent because I got tired a long time ago of getting into fruitless arguments with people who just don't understand the game design or, for that matter, wargaming in general. I think the reality is that you are in agreement with a much larger segment of Matrix's wargaming market than these forums would lead you to believe.
[:D]



mogami -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/21/2004 10:30:13 PM)

Hi, If the player was creating his airgroups he would be limited by the aircraft he had in pool and by what level of training he would accept for the pilots. The number of active groups would be a result of what the player could maintain not what the historic number.
The Japanese airgroups are confusing some players because they forget that while new groups with newer aircraft arrive on map it was often as a result of older groups with other aircraft being disbanded. (The Japanese only kept the number of groups they could maintain)



Charles2222 -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/22/2004 2:03:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, If the player was creating his airgroups he would be limited by the aircraft he had in pool and by what level of training he would accept for the pilots. The number of active groups would be a result of what the player could maintain not what the historic number.
The Japanese airgroups are confusing some players because they forget that while new groups with newer aircraft arrive on map it was often as a result of older groups with other aircraft being disbanded. (The Japanese only kept the number of groups they could maintain)


Well, you know, I was just using that as an example. The ramifications are enormous. Think of how many ships there were which I don't know etc. That doesn't even begin to treat of the difficulty of knowing how many tons of any raw material going to specific industries was. I mean if you really have control from the ground up, you could build more planes than they did, or more of somehitng else than they did. I don't want to go strictly by what they built, but at the same time I would want to knw just how far I had gone off of the historic so that I could then see what good my changes made to the overall outcome.



mogami -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/22/2004 2:19:38 AM)

HI, I'm sure before long someone will count everything. Then you'll know.



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