First impressions of the game (Full Version)

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Williamb -> First impressions of the game (8/25/2004 6:16:48 PM)

Have to say its an awesome game. The scope and depth is unlike anything i have seen before. I could play for another year or so and still find something in it I didnt know existed.

To have a game that includes every ship, Plane and unit of the WWII Pacific front is both gratifying and overwhelming. This alone makes this game very replayable as with the number of units in the game will always been something new to happen.

Also kudos for integrating in such things as leaders and pilots. They have an impact on the game and arent just window dressing. Its just more depth to an already deep game.

As for how the game "feels" I can say it seem to play much as you would expect the actual war to have gone. There is stragety including target selection (air,naval and ground)and economic planing. There is the operational level as you plan operations inside areas of operation. And there is even some tactics as you assign things like what level of Air operations or what planes to group together for airstrikes or how to compose your Task Forces for specific tasks. This game requires you to think. Its not just a checker game can be a very good chess match.

Now that I have game will comment about the Japanese plane controversy. I for one dont see it.

I know I have a different personality than some. I have played games online and between freinds. For me to PLAY the game is the goal. For some others to WIN the game is the goal.

And that is the WHOLE Japanese production argument in a nutshell. Some want to WIN so badly that they feel need to cheat and work around the system.

To me the system isnt broke. Its is right dead on. Doesnt matter that the Japanese are mismatched. That was the HISTORICAL truth.

To me this reminds me of the argument I saw once about German WWII Pilots. Some were bragging "hey they had pilots that had over 300 to 400 Kills during the war)

Yes thats true. Also true they fought for amost 6 years. Also true MANY of those kills were against Polish, French, and Russia Biplanes and crap aircraft. Have to take everything in perspective. Why I find seeing the Buffalo and Nates and older aircraft in the game ot not only be accurate but also FUN. Its one of those things that make you think.

Think of WITP as a chess match. Some want every peice to be knights and queens. For me having PAWNS in the game means I have to plan for how to use them. Its part of the game to fight pawn agianst pawn. Or block a enemy knight with a pawn. Is it fair ? you bet. TO remove all the pawns in the game and only play with super units to me spoils the game and makes it unfun.

Some actually thing the German Whermacht was a uber military force. Truth was it was always short of material and most of the German equiptment was patchwork. Not every german tank was a tiger. German artillery was horse drawn. German produce less than a thousand tanks per month for most of the war.

And if Nazi Germany was lacking in Military equipt then in Japan it was animic. Japan was in far WORSE shape economically than even Nazi Germany. And to hear an argument that Japan needs to be allowed to hyper expand its industry to match Allied output to me not only sounds wrong but just plain stupid.

Reminds me of game I was playing once with my brother Scott. It was the 1941 invasion of Russia. he was the Germans. He turned and asked me "Why cant I have command Tiger starting this campaign ?" [8|]

I patiently explained to him "Germany didnt build the first tiger tank till 1943". he then expressed to me. "Well thats unfair the Russians tanks are almost as good as mine !!!"

Point was that he and I were focused on different things. I wanted to enjoy the game and play with in historical limits. To me the challenge of beating the Russians with what I had was good gaming. For my brother he just wanted to win. Didnt matter how just win. To me that is too much like cheating.

Well after that rant have another rant. What I find wrong with game.

With so much to do in game can get to be a challenge. First off is the convoy system. Economically Im letting the Japan AI run the Japanese economy. I simply increase the Building of Zeros and Betties and cut out some obsolete designs.

But on first turn can get tedious to hit EVERY port and hunt down EVERY Tanker and Cargo ship to order them to go back to the home convoy ports for BOTH sides.

Dunno why the designers did put on every cargo and tanker a button to hit that "Add to Convoy system". I could have just gone down the ship list and hit each ship individually and added them in. As it was I had to go to every base. Add every ship to a TF then send it back to home port to THEN add to convoy system. This could be streamlined alot.

Secondly I feel that the recon phase of this game is really broken.

Someone tell me what is up with recon (non naval) searches ? These pilots have to be the dumbest in the entire game.

I went through on test game and let the deciede their own targets. They ONLY flew over places my bombers and fighters had ALREADY hit !. They tag along on bombing runs. I finally in restart gave orders to each one to check out OTHER targets. My bombers can tell me what is in the hexes I bomb my recon needs to check out other areas.

And for the life of me why did you enter their reports into real time game ? Since you cant jump in and effect what happens during the turn is NO NEED to hear their reports during the battles. I swear every time I hear those damn Japanese recon pilots clicking their cameras I want to scream "Damn Japanese Tourists !!!"

Added to this is the reverse that IMPORTANT data is left out !. Yeah might hear a "Main body" report and or sighting of ships. But I feel there is a part of the game that is missing.

For example. In my first start I heard a "main body" report during the real time replay of the turn. Then it went on to that camera clicking.

It wasnt till AFTER the report I saw what caused that "Main body" report when I checked out the post turn operations report.

Aparently a PBY spotted the Rujuho CVL TF heading towards the Phillipine isles. That PBY got JUMPED by its CAP and damaged. Another PBY spotted a Japanese TF and got hit by flack from it and damaged. Also have seen ASW warfare carried out by planes and ONLY listed in the operational report screen.

I would have NEVER known this if I hadnt check operational reports. TO me that was a CRITICAL report that didnt get to me. I got all those STUPID "CLICK CLICK CLICK" area recon of sites I ALREADY KNEW were gonna take place. And valuable recon didnt get back to me or was breifly skimmed over.

I woud have ENJOYED seeing a Combat report of my PBY getting jumped by the Claudes of that Japanese CAP. To see that PBY under attack would have had me SEARCHING for that Japanese carrier group.

Recon is just completely backwards in this game. Useless "CLICK CLICK CLICK" of ALREADY targeted sites should have been moved to reports only and useful action like spotting enemy taskforces and air combat between recon planes and fighters shoud have been put IN. Need to fix this part of the game.

Finally for now want to mention sound. The "main body " report didnt bother me much. (almost catch myself wanting to take pictures of Beautiful women bending over and saying "Main Body Sighted".

Its the sounds like bombardment. I had BBs bombing a coastline. I expected BOOM !!!! What I got sounds like a car wreck. I swear it sounds like someone rear ended a Yugo I mean you can almost hear the tinfoil crunching !!!

I am gonna edit in better sounds. They do need to be more dramatic.

Gonna play some more and learn some more.



Williamb -> RE: First impressions of the game (8/25/2004 9:11:58 PM)

Wanted to add. Anyone know why when you click on a unit to check it out that units fatigue goes up ?

I guess inspections tire them out.



Grotius -> RE: First impressions of the game (8/26/2004 12:48:02 AM)

LoL, I didn't know that clicking on a unit increased its fatigue. You sure you're not talking about Soviet units? Clicking on them produces odd results for me.



shoevarek -> RE: First impressions of the game (8/26/2004 3:14:29 AM)

quote:

Polish, French, and Russia Biplanes and crap aircraft


Hey get off from Polish biplanes and crap aircrafts. Polish Airforce had no biplanes apart from the training planes and anyway biplane did not mean completely outdated aircraft in 1939 terms (see Czechs Avias b534, British Gladiators or Russian I153). One would think that Luftwaffe and Wehrmaht went to war with cream of the crop hardware. Also I may be wrong but French/British and for sure Russian airforces had much more modern planes than the Axis.

Most Polish aircrafts were outdated in 1939 (the country was not so developed to keep up with neighbouring powers and the new prototypes have been scheduled for production in 1940s, see also PZL P37) but still Luftwaffe fighters did not make huge scoring - the reason beeing small number of aircrafts on the Polish side, lack of combat experience and determination of Polish pilots. Here are some numbers:

1) 36 polish fighter planes destroyed in the air - 23 german fighters destroyed in the air (total lost german fighter numbers due to all causes were much in favour of BF110 that were havily armoured and more durable - and that is why Germans came to conclusion that BF110 is pretty good escort fighter). Not a bad results when you compare the tech specs.
2) According to Germans they lost 285 planes (destroyed by fighters, AA or ground accidents) and 263 (279) damaged (from this number only 70 were repairable). Other German sources say about 100 planes lost in air combat during first 6 days of war against 79 Polish planes destroyed. Of course numbers differ from source to source but there are no huge differences in losses that the plane technical specs differences would imply. The war was not the UV or WiTP where pilots with faster aircrafts always win. Pilots determination, training level, experience and tactics were much more important.
3) Much more fighter planes have been destroyed in accidents than in combat (on both sides).

My sources can be wrong but they say that Luftwaffe as victories counted planes forced to retreat or heavily damaged. There were no partial victories (sometimes victory was given to all pilots that participated in the fight, sometimes the best of them - maybe there originate the stories I heard about victories transferred to the squadron's ace by other squadron's pilots). So 300 victories means nothing unless they are really confirmed. Add to that usuall (found on both sides - Allied and Axis) victory overstatement due to 'FoW'.

PS

Some other interesting facts on Polish Airforce
1) Polish fighters from beginning of war used loose formation with pairs of planes (adopted later by allies)
2) Polish fighters destroyed 59 German planes in 1940 campaign in France
3) In 6 weeks of combat during the Battle of Britain Polish 303 squadron destroyed 126 German planes, more than twice as many as any other RAF squadron during that time (the number of claims should be downgraded as German sources say the real losses during BoB were 30% lower than claimed by Allies, but the proportions would be pretty the same).
4) At some time of BoB around 20% of fighter pilots were Polish.
5) And finally one of the aces of 303, I believe Urbanowicz, for a short period of time faught in China in US squadron.

Proud to be Polish [:D]



mogami -> RE: First impressions of the game (8/26/2004 5:05:10 AM)

Hurra! Having the Soviets coming from the other side did not help matters.



Caltone -> RE: First impressions of the game (8/26/2004 5:39:46 AM)

Good mini review and some good points on the Axis in general. I like to play the Axis but not because I want 10's of 1000's of Tiger II's and Panthers launching Barbarossa, or squadron after squadron of Frank's battling for the PI. When I feel like that kind of game, I load up HOI (which is a fun game btw from time to time).

I come to WitP looking for a historical wargame with a very immersive experience. I like to watch that one Nate pilot start racking up kills, or how well Tanaka does when he catches a surface group by surprise. The challenge only increases as the Allies ramp up the production and start amassing huge numerical advantages and equal or better tech advantages.

I too think the production system hits it right on. Some will come and argue against your point that they don't want to make uber squadrons only a few upgrade path changes. And to this, I don't understand why they can't do this in the editor. Do a cost/benefit and you'll agree it can't be rewritten.

As for your comments on the convoy system. I don't have this problem as I'm a micromanger at heart. I don't let the AI control anything for me [:D]

The recon flights can get a little old, but they have shortened the sound and I watch the replay to see what's going on and where my opponent is searching. If you get tired of it, hit the ESC key and it will speed through till your next combat.

Your sound comment puzzles me. While the current bombardment sound is still not up to UV quality, the car wreck sound was in version 1.0. Have you patched yet? If not, you should and then restart.



Sultanofsham -> RE: First impressions of the game (8/26/2004 7:37:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: William Amos
And that is the WHOLE Japanese production argument in a nutshell. Some want to WIN so badly that they feel need to cheat and work around the system.


[8|]

Not quite sunshine. A number of us want to mess around with "what-if's" and have stated that time and time again even if it seems certain people just want to mistake or lie about what is was about to dismiss it.

I guess using that same warped logic if I remove the Betty and replace it with a Jap version of the B-25 to see if something like it would have served the Japanese better, or a navy version of the P-38 with Rotory engines I'm just trying to WIN? Get a grip.

quote:

ORIGINAL: William Amos
And to hear an argument that Japan needs to be allowed to hyper expand its industry to match Allied output to me not only sounds wrong but just plain stupid.


Funny I never saw anyone ask for that. A number of "anti-pick your groups aircraft" guys claimed crap like that but I never once saw anyone ask for it. Got a quote?



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