Economic Phase and OOB (Full Version)

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fjbn -> Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 12:46:40 PM)

Rules say that National Economic Pages and OOB must be public. I mean, everybody has the right to know that I French Corp has 20 Inf 3 Cav real strenght, but the player must guess where the hell is that monster. The reason behind that rule is letting other players know what are you buying and modify their play according these facts. It's just like having spies in other powers which, in fact, was true.

Playing PBEM with a referee is a bit different. Some pleople say that the referee means that OOB and economic pages doesn't need to be public yet, but others say that must be public anyway. Of course, this is not important when you are conforming a PBEM game because rules are voted by the players, but in a PC game it's different, because many rules can't be changed. I would like to know how is implemented these items in MG game, I mean, if Economic pages and OOB will be public or not.

Thanks




NeverMan -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 3:24:25 PM)

Um, I must have never read that rule. All the games that I played, builds and reinforcements were always private. Also, you only got to know the strength of the corp when you went into battle with it.

For instance, you might know that Napoleon had control of the I, II, III, IV, I Cav and the Gaurd, but you wouldn't know the actual force amount until you had to fight Nap.

This is the way I always played.

Can you quote the rule that states otherwise?




shanebosky -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 5:45:03 PM)

I think fjbn means that the sheet with all the corps' potential maximum strengths is public knowledge. e.g. French 1st corp could potentially have 20i and 3c, and so on, so Austria knows at least that Nap with 1,2,&3 corp could in worst case scenario have x number of inf and y number of cav. This probably should remain public. At least I hope this is what he means. Otherwise you're right, Neverman.




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 6:35:38 PM)

quote:

Can you quote the rule that states otherwise?


I think it is up to you to show rules that say that they should remain hidden.

The ONLY Fog of War in the original EiA game is this:

quote:

Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by only the owning player, except when its identity must be revealed to other players


There is no other Fog. You can see strenghts, expenditures, everything. At any time you can ask Great Britain how many ships they are building this turn, and how much money Russia has left in the bank. Of course you can agree to play however you want to among your friends, but the rules explicitly mention only one Fog of War element. To extrapolate that into hiding anything else is disingenious.

Please note the following rule:

quote:

The designation of each fleet (and its movement allowance) is shown on the front of the counter and so its designation and exact strength should always be known to all players.


If, according to you, the National Cards are secret, then how are players supposed to know the exact strength of naval counters?

As a matter of fact, if playing with optional rule 12.1.2 SHIP BUILDING LOCATIONS, you actually have to designate the exact port of arrival, instead of just saying this turn Spain builds 3 ships.

Besides, if expenditures are secret, how the hell am I supposed to know the Turk isn't pulling free infantry out of his ass?




Titi -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 7:26:43 PM)

I agree with Carniflex here. In the official EiA rules everything is public except for where is this corps number X?

However i think that the goal is to prevent any cheating. Im my experience, in every game we played, we never show the national card to another player nor the economic one.
We did only reply whenever asked to how many ships are in this fleet, announce ships building and location where they are build and economic manipulation.

That home rule can easily be done with the CEiA but i've no idea if this is really a good way to do it regarding the effect on the simulation.

However, i've another question on the same subject, when asked to choose a corps for loan, or removing three or half of your corps, how are they selected? By giving the number as their strengths are supposed public, randomly or choosen on the map (guessing or with memeories of previous engagement)? In EiA and CEiA?




NeverMan -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 7:34:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex



quote:

Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by ONLY the owning player, except when its identity must be revealed to other players


There is no other Fog. You can see strenghts, expenditures, everything. At any time you can ask Great Britain how many ships they are building this turn, and how much money Russia has left in the bank. Of course you can agree to play however you want to among your friends, but the rules explicitly mention only one Fog of War element. To extrapolate that into hiding anything else is disingenious.


Yes, the sheets are public knowledge, obviously. However, strengths are not. I will find the rule for you as soon as I get a chance and prove it to you. It may take a couple of days, as I am very busy at the moment.

EDIT: Ships, in EiA, are dealt with quite differently than are land corps. Very different. If I remember correctly, and I will try to find the rule for this one as well, ships being built must be announced when they are built, how many, and where, and yes ship factors ARE public knowledge.




fjbn -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 8:03:45 PM)

Well, if you probe what you're saying I will be very glad[&o]. I introduced this thread because there has been a controversy in one game where Iīm the referee. Some people more experienced than I say that all information must be public except where are the corps, but after introducing the thread I have only found two places where rules say clearly that must be public: fleet strenght and manipulation. Other rules doesn't clarify if all is public or not. I must admit, I'm really lost.[&:]




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 8:10:34 PM)

quote:

However, i've another question on the same subject, when asked to choose a corps for loan, or removing three or half of your corps, how are they selected? By giving the number as their strengths are supposed public, randomly or choosen on the map (guessing or with memeories of previous engagement)? In EiA and CEiA?


I can't believe no one bothered to scan the Victory Conditions card anywhere on the web :) Mine is at home at the moment, but if memory serves me correct, corps on loan is an informed choice, except iirc some corps types are ineligible, like guards and artillery and maybe feudal, not sure, but anyway the process of choosing corps on loan is not random or hidden.

As for the removal, I believe that choice is random and the victorious player just picks out several corps out of all available, and I think also some types of corps are ineligible. I remember that when a player felt someone was going to take half his army they would purchase all the empty corps counters they could and fill them with 1 factor and hope they diluted the removal to come.

Not sure, maybe someone with access to the card can post for sure or I will check when I get home.




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 8:36:04 PM)

quote:

Other rules doesn't clarify if all is public or not


They don't really need to specify what is public, only what is hidden imho. There is only one place in the rules that specifically mention Fog of War, which is the composition of corps counters on the map. Since they went out of their way to mention this, you can be assured that if anything else was private it would be specifically mentioned as well.

If you look at section 2.0 which deals with setup, the rules tell you to get a big table to fit the whole map and all the national cards and all the other stuff. Then they say to use garrison markers to mark corps strengths. Now, how are you going to have that hidden when the cards are right there for all to see and your strength markers are also there? It doesn't say keep them upside down, or they can't be inspected, or to put a sheet of paper over them or to growl menacingly when someone gets to close and starts looking. It says put the counters on the cards. For fleet counters, which are on the same card, it specifically tells you that you can match up the fleet counter with the National Card. It doesn't say keep half the card hidden. For economic expenditures and all other money matters, it tells you write it down. It doesn't say keep it secret. It doesn't say keep it private. People might want to assume that, which is fine, but again, it's not in the rules.

Rules Here




fjbn -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 9:10:50 PM)

I don't think so. Rules say when you have to make public some information. You say that public is the general rule. Well, it's your opinion, but I don't see that base in any rule. This is a war game, and secret is part of war. You donīt have to let any clue to your enemies and even your today's allies, because they'll probably be your next enemies. As a Liverpool coach said in the sixties: "If I could, I would only say that there is a match here, not more".

Both opinions (secret or public) are more in what people think is the esence of the game that in rules themselves.




Mark Breed -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 9:26:14 PM)

The rules only infer that the National Card information is public. Here are the rules:

Rule 2.3 states: "... any table selected should be large enough not only to hold the maps but also to provide room for the various cards to be placed near and around the maps."

"2.4.2 USING THE NATIONAL CARDS: The maximum strengths of corps and fleets are shown on the appropriate National Cards (one card per major power, and one for all of the minor countries). The corps and fleet counters when face-up on the map only show their general type and movement allowance. Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by only the players (e.g., during a combat - see 7.5.2.6.3). The designation of each fleet (and its movement allowance) is shown on the front of the counter and so its designation and exact strength should always be known to all players."

In the group that I play with, we prefer to increase the fog of war keeping the cards hidden and only reveal the strength of the fleets based on the "should" comment. In fact, we keep the oob sheets in our own clip boards or notebooks using pencils and erasers to track the strengths.

Regards,
Mark




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 10:53:27 PM)

quote:

You say that public is the general rule. Well, it's your opinion, but I don't see that base in any rule. This is a war game, and secret is part of war.


Yeah, well, lol, your 'secret is a part of war' statement is purely your own opinion too, and I don't see you providing any examples or logic to back that up.

And public is the general rule for every single boardgame ever designed, whether a wargame or a wordgame. Unless the rules specifically say something is hidden, then it's not. That is why games provide "Hidden" markers, and that is why games provide screens or trays or other devices to hide information.

I agree that the original EiA rules are very vague in some places, but this particular topic has already been debated to death on the EiA mailing list and the consensus was that the National Cards are public knowledge. It was also said that many people prefer to keep them secret. Hey, like I said I don't care, play the game however you want to, and if you have implicit trust in all the other six players because they're your best buddies and you know they would never give themselves an extra ten infantry points well that's great. I don't have six reliable trustworthy people to devote ten weeks of life for an EiA session, so there's usually one or two people who we or I don't know very well. So it's all out there, just so there's no griping or suspicion later.




yammahoper -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/26/2004 11:47:00 PM)

Most of our games, we were all freinds and we still announced everything. We even went so far as to declare purchases in the eco phases and our record keeper would announce troop arrival every reinforcement phase. It worked great for us.

During play, I was know to keep a list of known corp strength of various nations. That was very helpful.




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/27/2004 3:13:11 AM)

ok, finally got home :)

B4. (Corps on Loan) The victor has an informed choice of corps, but Guard, Grenadier, Artillery or Cavalry corps may not be selected.

That's simple.

Now, for the removal of corps, with Conditional: Must remove 3 corps or half(round up) of the corps currently on map, whichever is lesser. Choice is random, but cannot include Guard and Grenadier.

With Unconditional, it's 3 corps or half (round down) the on-map corps, whichever is greater. The choice is random. The Unconditional removal does not list any restrictions, meaning that Guard and Grenadier corps are not exempt.




NeverMan -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/27/2004 6:10:17 AM)

How does making everything public even make sense?? Each eco buy is public knowledge to all of Europe? That's just stupid.

When you play poker, do you make sure the table is big enough to fit your cards on it? Then do you show your cards to every one at the table?

OK, my apologies if I have offended anyone. This is an idiotic conversation that I am done with. Call me the loser to make carnifex happy. :)




pfnognoff -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/27/2004 9:03:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Call me the loser to make carnifex happy. :)



Is your surrender conditional or unconditional? [:D][:D]

I guess it was only a matter of time before this "gray area" of EiA rules will raise the spirits arround here...

My EiA group considered this "public Eco phase/Corps strength" issue to be clear but stupid rule, so we kept them secret unless specifically requested by somebody. We did this because even if we are all good friends, we play to win, and if you think there is cheating going on you should be able to check your suspisions to calm things down. Usually it was enough to make everyone happy. This issue is not important enough to loose sleep over, especially since now with computer EiA there will be no room for cheating...




fjbn -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/27/2004 2:25:53 PM)

You are right, there will no room for cheating or mistakes, but in fact it's important to make clear what you brightly call "the grey area" of EiA rules, because I think we all agree that MG rules will be in the end the standards in EiA, no matter if you play via PC, Cyberboard or other ways.




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/27/2004 7:26:49 PM)

quote:

Call me the loser to make carnifex happy. :)


I'm willing to go informal for minor future considerations [sm=00000924.gif]

It's not that important - anyway as people mentioned all these gray areas will go away in the computer version since you won't be able to to argue rule interpretations with the program. Whatver side Matrix comes down on is the way it will go.




Murat -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/27/2004 9:02:47 PM)

Well we were not really concerned over cheating, just mathmatical error. Purchases were really not so much of a problem as morale calculation for battles where a .1 either way could often make the difference between victory and defeat. We even had one of those math savants where you could call out how much of each unit you had and he would tell you your correct morale faster than you could put it in the calculator. He was right WAY more than wrong but I checked every time just because sometimes he would get the wrong .1 in his head.

The idea of truly "secret" corps strength is hard in practice anyway since you can "scout" a stack, know it's strength and tell all your allies (while only the 2 combatants can LOOK they still have voices). I like the idea of some fog of war, one could never be absolutely positive about what they were facing, but within a cavalry zone (the area cavalry could move in 1 phase) a player should have a pretty good idea of what is there. Secret builds will not be an issue since noone can cheat their builds anymore, so I would rather they be secret than not (even naval builds - this rule always struck me as odd, why would it be easier to know every single ship that an opponent is building in every single port than to know what corps is that 2 movement away from your army? o_O ). As for corps strengths, finding out during battle is fine with me, you can always see how MANY corps are there and their type and guess the worst. Once there is conflict you have a pretty good idea of what the riposte will be.




pfnognoff -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/28/2004 12:10:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

Secret builds will not be an issue since noone can cheat their builds anymore, so I would rather they be secret than not (even naval builds - this rule always struck me as odd, why would it be easier to know every single ship that an opponent is building in every single port than to know what corps is that 2 movement away from your army?


My guess as to why the eco phase builds and shipbuilding locations are not secret in the original is that spies should have easier time at their job in urban areas as opposed to open country or forests where the armies moved. Also, building ships and weapons and training troopers and crews takes long time and is usually confined to a certain area, but these are just my wild guesses, the only real answer to this can be given by EiA designers. I'm really hoping MG did go through enough of EiA rules gray areas in cooperation with the designers to give us clear interpretation in the computer version.




Titi -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (8/28/2004 4:40:49 AM)

Another point about the relative lack of secret is that each time a corp forage and lose one or more factor(s) on the map, the other players just learn which one it s and it's strength because you must remove publicaly the factor from your national chart . (public information following the original rules).

It's why we used to keep those national and econimic sheets hidden, but thinking about it twice, some spy can find evidence of the corps presence and strength by speaking with those "deserteurs" around a beer or wine bottle[:D]




oahunick -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/1/2004 8:12:50 AM)

The National Cards and Purchase Cards are officially public Knowledge. The only thing a EiA player has to work with (as far as bluffing) is the Corp counters. THAT'S WHY ROWLAND IDENTIFIED THEM ON THE BACK. (As opposed to Naval counters) People, you may have played otherwise, but not being able to read the back of a Corps counter is where the fog of war begins and ends.

I hope Matrix sticks with official doctrine ... half the fun was watching and monitoring Russia's purchase plan filled with 3 ships when they just allied up with Spain and GB!!

Brit player: Hey, you don't need to buy that Russia??!!
Russian player: Well an extra few ships can't hurt right??
Brit player: hey Spain, any aversion to sailing your fleet to the Baltic with me???

Anyways I'm not going to debate which way is more enjoyable - just hoping Matrix stays true to the "spirit of the law" even though 2.4.2 is weak as "the letter of the law".

Take care everyone.




ardilla -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/1/2004 4:37:25 PM)

Well, I had read all the comments and I have to tell you that me and my buddies we never played with public accounts.

Only, in our actual game, we agree to play with public corps streght, but, seriously, we are dissapointed.

Was more fun when it was also hidden.

I can not understand a game with public accounting and production, other than to avoid "mistakes" or cheats.

What about those secret loans of money from one country to another???

Anyway, this is just a game and since all players agree with a way of playing that is fine.

So I expect that MG allows us to vote this "grey rules" and other options before the start of the game and if possible before the bidding whenever this is available with the PC game.

Regards.




oahunick -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/2/2004 11:13:25 AM)

I'm actually hoping Matrix does not offer the public/secret choice on CEiA. I don't want the glorious legacy of EiA tarnished by these so called "options".

It's like what happened to boxing years ago. Now you have the IBF champion, the WBA champ, and the WBC champ.

Example: Player #1 - Hey, I'm a first rate EiA "public knowledge" player.
Player #2 - That's great, but I only play "secret" rules and I am an EiA master!!
Player #1 - Well I won't play you and risk losing my status as a great "public knowledge" player

EiA does not need this stuff. Fragmenting the rules hurts us all.

Some people love 7-card stud or Texas Hold'em with most of the cards "on the table" = "public knowledge player"

Others like 5 card draw where opponents can not see any of your hand = "secret national card player"

But lets not turn EiA into a poker or boxing where there are "specialists" at one genre or another!!

Matrix - Don't let let it happen.

Take care everyone




Murat -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/2/2004 12:49:17 PM)

quote:



[ 1.5 ] THE NATIONAL CARDS: The seven National Cards for the major powers have two sides, and players may use either side in a game, as desired. Side one is used with small garrison/strength counters to record the strengths of corps and fleets and with economic manipulation markers for economic manipulation (see option 12.5) and is recommended for use with the scenarios. Side two must be copied, with pencils and erasers used to record and modify necessary information and is recommended for use with the campaign games. The card for the minor countries also has two sides. Side one is used to record the strengths of corps and fleets the same as the major power cards' side one, while side two has forms for use with option 12.6 and must be copied (numerous copies needed) and cut up for use. If side two of the major power's national cards are used side one of the Minor Country National Card is not needed as strengths can be recorded on the major powers' copies of side two.

2.4.2 USING THE NATIONAL CARDS: The maximum strengths of corps and fleets are shown on the appropriate National Cards (one card per major power, and one for all of the minor countries). The corps and fleet counters when face-up on the map only show their general type and movement allowance. Which corps each counter represents is shown on the back of the counter and may be examined by only the owning player, except when its identity must be revealed to other players (e.g., during a combat-see 7.5.2.6.3). The designation of each fleet (and its movement allowance) is shown on the front of the counter and so its designation and exact strength should always be known to all players.

2.4.2.1 USING SIDE ONE OF THE NATIONAL CARDS: Side one of each National Card contains spaces for indicating the strength of every corps and fleet of that major power or of the minor countries.

2.4.2. 1. 1 Showing Strengths: The number in each box indicates the maximum number of ships or army factors of that type that that corps or fleet may contain. The current strength of a corps is shown by the placement of garrison/strength counters in the appropriate boxes. For this purpose, use any national or neutral infantry or militia garrison/strength counter or counters. The counters used can be of any type or nationality, as it is their strength and the box they occupy that determine their effect and what they represent. For example, a French militia counter of "3 "factors in a Russian cavalry box acts as "3 " cavalry factors, not as militia. These factors are also interchangeable (e.g., a "2" and a "1 " factor counters can be exchanged for a "3" factor counter, etc.), as with the garrison strengths (see 2.4. 1). Note that most corps for most major powers allow for a maximum number of regular infantry and/or militia factors plus an additional number of cavalry factors (plus an additional number of guard factors in some cases).

2.4.2.1.2 Altering Strengths: The current strength of a corps or fleet is altered as strengths vary (e.g., because of swapping factors between corps, combat losses, foraging losses, garrison detachments, etc.) by changing the number of factors in the appropriate boxes of that corps or fleet.

2.4.2.1.3 Economic Manipulation (Optional): If option 12.5 is used, the major power's economic manipulation markers should be initially placed in the "O" boxes of their ECONOMIC MANIPULATION DISPLAYS.

2.4.2.2 USING SIDE TWO OF THE NATIONAL CARDS: Side two of the major power National Cards is recommended for campaign games because most garrison/strength counters will be required to show garrisons and also because other sections are handy for maintaining economic and reinforcement records for both the major powers and their controlled minor free states. This side of the cards should be photocopied and used simply by penciling in information and erasing as changes are made.

2.4.2.2.1: Corps and fleet strengths for both the major power and its controlled minor free states can be penciled in and erased and adjusted as necessary.

2.4.2.2.2: Money expenditures between Economic Phases, prisoners, etc. can be recorded on any free space on the copies.

2.4.2.2.3: Economic manipulation (see option 12.5) is recorded as part of the ECONOMIC AND MANPOWER WORKSHEET on side two plus using the ECONOMIC MANIPULATION DISPLAYS on side one.




OK.... 1.5 says it is the PLAYER'S option on how they wish to record their information; 2.4.2 only discusses FLEET STRENGTHS as something that SHOULD be known (not MUST be known); 2.4.2.2 RECOMMENDS using side two; soo....

technically the rules do not REQUIRE anything to be revealed by a player and IMPLY only that fleet strengths be known. IF this sounds to legalese keep in mind the numbering system IS English Legal and as with all rules, if it is not discussed and need interpretation then you need some way to resolve conflicts, no EiA Court exists, but there is:

quote:



[ 10.8 ] SETTLING DISPUTES: Although it is pointed out in numerous places throughout the rules that major powers with conflicting and equal claims may settle their disputes through mutual agreement or through competitive die, rolls (sometimes modified), other cases can arise that are not mentioned elsewhere. In all these cases, if a mutual agreement cannot be reached, let unmodified competitive die rolls decide. for example, if leaders or army factors are captured by mixed forces controlled by more than one major power, the control over the "prisoners " can be decided by mutual agreement or, if agreement cannot be reached, by competitive die rolls (roll for each factor or leader over which there is a disagreement).



As for there being a fog of war option, there is much less stragtegy to a game when you know what units are where and how strong each is. If I wanted a simple war game, I would not be playing EiA. To not have a fog of war option would be a disservice IMHO (unless of course fog of war was standard and there was no way to turn it off, then such an option would be moot). [:D]




ardilla -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/2/2004 5:19:22 PM)

Well, I am sorry Oahunick, but I hope Matrix let it happen.

With the options we can choose and nothing is close, like in the rules is not clear, let it be like this.

I will play with all options as i will with all countries, If I can at the same time [:'(]

I agree that you should inform your player mates how many ships are you building and where, because it takes a year, many people and it is imposible to hide, at that time was know by everybody, so it is kind of realistic.

But, with you manpower it is different, you just call or recruit people, make guns, cannons or buy horses.
And, of course, about everybody knowing how much money has left other player makes not sense at all.
Also, takes only 3 months to make inf, so even if it was know, when the spy arrives to Moscow, for example it is already out the infantry!!!

Even at Risk you dont know what cards your enemy has!!!

It is not like poker, everything hidding, but your money and what you do with it, besides ships, should be private.

OK, some people do not do it because of cheating or mistakes, but with the CEiA this will be solved.

For example, a real one.
Our present game of EiA, AU was at war with TU and FR was waiting to go over AU and make the war between them long and bloody, so FR without beeing at war with AU, gave money to TU to help.
If this is public, as many other things like this, I personally think that the game will losse a lot.

BUT, with options you can play with other players as you want, and do not worry about ratings, there will be always first and second class players [8|] and you can win or losse, depending of your nation and what other people does!!

REgards.




Manfred -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/2/2004 6:09:30 PM)

I used to play many games of EiA the last ten years, and we NEVER played with public sheets ! however, the ships buildings and the ships total for each nation were public.
I think that the game is way more interesting with these "home rules", knowing the buildings and the exact size & organisation of each army is a nonsense for me. I hope that CEiA will allow the fog of war.




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/2/2004 7:23:15 PM)

quote:

technically the rules do not REQUIRE anything to be revealed by a player and IMPLY only that fleet strengths be known.


You're taking the word "should" out of context. For the naval counters, it means "must".

4.6.3.2 ORDER OF SETUP: If the forces of a number of different minor countries all need to be set up, they should be set up by the controlling major powers in the order: France, Russia, Turkey, Austria, Prussia, Great Britain, Spain.

Do you think this implies that the forces should be set up in that order? No, it tells you that's the order you must do it.

[ 8.5 ] MONEY AND MANPOWER EXPENDITURE STEP: Money should be expended in the order that expenses are listed below.

Do you think the rules imply that you should spend your money in a certain order? No, it's a must that you pay off your formal debts before buying new forces.




Murat -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/2/2004 9:05:34 PM)

Just using the definition of the word "should". "Should" means that is the usual path, but not the only or required one, whereas "must" means it is the only and required path. I did not invent English, nor did I write the rules, nor do I think the developers forsaw how their poor choice of words and editing would lead to big problems, but we can always let unmodified dice rolls decide [:D] Actually, in both of the rules you cited, we did NOT follow the order listed. Minor set-up was simultaneous and often very public since other players frequently suggest modified placements for better defense of the minors. As for money expenditure, you did not quote the whole section (which has a "must" AND a "should" in it):

quote:


[ 8.5 ] MONEY AND MANPOWER EXPENDITURE STEP: Money and manpower are used to pay expenses and for building/recruiting new ships and/or army (regular infantry and cavalry, militia, guard and/or artillery) factors. Minor free states pay their own maintenance, at the same rates. If the minor free state cannot pay, the major power controlling the minor free state must pay. Money should be expended in the order that expenses are listed below. Any major power that becomes "bankrupt" during 8.5.1 or 8.5.2 loses " - 3 " political points (immediately adjust the major power's political status marker on the POLITICAL STATUS DISPLAY)


and that particular "should", although careless, really is a default since:

quote:


3.0 SEQUENCE OF PLAY OF THE GAME


A "Turn" in EMPIRES IN ARMS represents one month of real time. Each Turn consists of a number of "phases" which may be further broken down into "steps. " Each phase or step is completed by all players before going to the next. Any phases or steps that do not apply during a Turn can be skipped. The sequence of a Turn (also given on the Game Card) is as follows:
.
.
.
[ 3.5 ] * THE ECONOMIC PHASE: See 8.0. This phase occurs
only every three months-at the end of the March, June, September
and December Turns. This phase is performed in steps as follows:
A. The Victory Points Step.
B. The Money and Manpower Collection Step.
C. The Lending Money Step.
D. The Manipulation Step.
E. The Money and Manpower Expenditure Step.
F. The Political Status Adjustment Step.
G. The Civil Disorder Step.
H. The Ceding Step.
I. The New Political Combinations Step (see options 11. I- 11. 6 and 11.8).
J. The Levy Step.
K. The UMP Control Step.


For speed we reduced this to a 4 phase econ system, which, while in order, involved doing several phases simulataneously (for example, we frequently would figure out what new factors we wanted and THEN see how much we wanted to throw into manipulation which is technically out of order but agreed to by all parties and thus in tune with 10.8):

1] Get VPs and adjust manipulation;
2] Collect money, negotiate and loan money between majors;
3] Set new manipulation, pay your costs and buy your stuff;
4] Politically adjust and hope you are not facing revolt [;)] while graciously handing out new offices to your relatives.

Keep in mind, 10.8 allows you to change ANYTHING that is not specific in the rules by mutual consent between the players (or unmodified die rolls of the competing sides). We have always held the "must" precludes a 10.8 change.




carnifex -> RE: Economic Phase and OOB (9/2/2004 9:38:24 PM)

For the minor country setup, you're not actually changing the rules, because if everyone is ok then who cares what order they are set up in? However, if someone is going to set up Naples based on how Venice sets up, then they are perfectly able to demand that Venice sets up first because the minors must follow a certain order.

And for the economic phase, you can do it in whatever order you like as long as the numbers work out, but you must pay your formal debts before buying new troops. If you use the "but not the only or required one" logic, well then you don't have to pay your debt because you just bought all this cavalry.

Even though both of the above say should, it's not really the preferred way, it's the only way.

Same thing with the fleet counters. If no one cares what they are and doesn't want to look, then fine, but if someone wants to see them, the opponent must show them (or should show them - same thing).

It's all splitting hairs really, anyway. [sm=00000289.gif]

I am curious to see how all the vague spots in the printed rulebook get ironed out into the computer version. I know the original rules were vague enough to always provide nice fodder for all those despicable rules lawyers (like me), and now with them being set in stone I will find a small unhappy place in my heart where that bright fire of contention used to burn.




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