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marc420 -> RE: Sick of RTS games.. this game looks great..question (8/30/2004 8:38:20 PM)
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I bought the original TAOW back when it first came out. (BTW, a search for Norm Koger in google will take you to the website of this good game designer - not sure what he's up to these days, but TAOW and the even older Age of Rifles are classics).
Not sure which is simpler out of the box, TAOW or KP. I've been playing these games for a long time, so some basic concepts I know without thinking. (BTW, that's why RTS never much appealed to me. I was hooked on these games before I tried my first clickfest). I suspect both would be playable out of the box at the level of pushing counters around and fighting battles. And both will have a lot of subtleties to learn later on. However I'd say the battle resolution screen in KP/BIN and the Combat Advisor probably make KP/BIN a little easier to start with.
I'd highly recommend KP and BIN right now. Both are excellent games. (Well, I'm taking it on faith that BIN will be an excellent game. Credit card sitting here ready for when I can buy it and find out for sure!!!! And that's the BEST compliment I can give these guys at SSG.)
In TAOW, Norm Koger created a system which was scalable from anything from von Moltke's battles with the Prussians late in the 19th century to modern warfare with aircraft, helicopters, missiles etc. Pretty impressive when you think about it. Its worth owning just for the range of scenarios that come with it, and which are available on the web.
But admittedly, I haven't played TAOW since I bought BIN. :)
The one thing I noticed about TAOW is that since the underlying data is so complex, it takes a fair amount of skill to set up a scenario. Thus I've seen scenarios that play nothing like the historical battle because of choices the scenario designer made. But there are a LOT of scenarios out for this system, so there are plenty of good ones.
Steel Panthers is another one to look into. I've usually got SPWAW on my computer. BTW, in case you look at this and get confused, Steel Panthers was the original commercial game. SP1 was WWII. SP2 was Modern conflicts. SP3 they raised the scale from individual tanks to platoons of tanks. It covers both WWII and modern. (some liked it, some don't ... I was in the "liked it" category). After the game system stopped being commercially developed, they let others come in and work on it. So Steel Panthers World at War (SPWAW) is continued development of the game by others. Same I think is true for Steel Panthers Main Battle Tank. I've played and really liked SPWAW. Can't say much about the other as I haven't seen it.
If you see a game called Combat Mission around, its the same sort of game as SP. Same infantry squad/individual vehicle scale. But with 3d graphics and a game system where you give all your orders for the next minute, then watch them execute. Probably a generation of game design beyond SP.
I just bought HTTR. I'm loving trying to learn that game right now. But it probably isn't a beginners game. Kinda assumes you know a bit about oob's and force structures and how military units are organized and what they are supposed to be doing as well as what various equipment is and does. But if you start playing these games, go back and get that one some day.
UV and WITP are both complex games and rather obtuse in their UI and design. I've got UV, but haven't bought WITP yet. Not quite sure that I want to play the War in the Pacific on 1 day turns yet. :) Love the concept, so I keep coming back to these games. But seems like it could be done better.
For a lot of these games, extensive "after action reports" are up on these forums. These are articles written by players who are playing the game. So its about like looking over their shoulder as they play. Reading the threads that say "AAR" can be a very good way to learn what these games are about, especially since most don't have demos available.
BTW, for most companies out there today, I try to always get a Demo first. But, for SSG I'd waive that rule. They seem to put out good quality games, and they don't seem to release buggy games that require patches to play the way other companies do. Its a short list of whom I'm willing to send money to blind these days for a game, but SSG is on that list.
To me, KP/BIN are pretty much state of the art these days. Especially for a game that manages to be a combination of historically accurate, fun to play, and relatively easy to learn. Well easy to learn at first. I just lost my first PBEM game, so I've obviously still got some more learning to do. The KP/BIN system comes across to me as very subtle. But as I learn it I'm more and more impressed with what they've done. KP/BIN don't overwhelm you with a lot of details and choices. But the way the choices that you are given are used is the part that's very subtle. That's where I just lost my PBEM game, on the subtle little details that I missed and my opponent didn't.
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