RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (Full Version)

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mogami -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 7:14:12 AM)

Hi, I think at the peak of training the USAAF finished the training for around 1900 pilots per month.



Brady -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 7:22:45 AM)

joliverlay:

"However the Japanese pilot training program was so rigorous that only about 100 men a year were being qualified, in a program that required fifty to sixty-four months to complete, depending on education on entry (high-school grads versus elementary school grads)."

See this:


"The otsu Yokaren admitded little more than 200men anualy up to 1938, and class size did not excead 1,000 untill may 1941. Otsu Yokaren Class No. 19 of December 1942 still had only 1,500 recutes. The figure then sudenly Jumped to 2,951 in the following Class No. 20 of May 1943. Among the Ko Yokaren by far the largest of the Yokaren programs , anual class sizes remained in the 250-260 range for most of the China War perioud. Numbers did not excead 1,000 until class No. 10 od Aprial 1942. A year later Class no. 12 counted 3,215, divided into three groups. The figure then exploded to almost 28,000 in class No. 13, divided into two groups in Otc. and Dec. 43."

""The 29 pilots lost at Pearl Harbor represented more than a quarter of the annual crop".

This is simply not so, even for the pre war perioud, the above source I sight is also not inclusive of Oficer training and inter service programes so their are moran are shwon their, I have a Book that lists all the clases for the Navy that graduated, It covers most all of them their are some missing class figures and some that are listed but some of the records were lost and figures are missing for them as well and realy their are far more piolets being produced than is normaly reflected in most western liturature, both the sources I have for the Japanese Navy are Japanese sources, not western.

"If you increase your incomming crop of new pilots you don't increase the number of graduates for MORE THAN FOUR YEARS"

This is wrong as well, tehy abrivated the training and the criteria for exceptance was lowered to a degree, the traing programe for the Japanese Naval avaitors was extinsive and involved much schooling in other subjects it was aver intensive programe pre war, total time neaded to compleat the corses was lowered progresavely during the war, this is why you see such huge clases graduating in some instances, but as noted above despite this untill well into the war even early 44 you are still geting fairly well trained men. Just look at he clases I list right above you their as examples, these are but a fraction of the total contained in the book, I love to transcribe stuff in fact at time I get carried away but their are so many clases each year that the task is daunting, I might just scan them all and post them if nescessary.

"Remember, in 1941 they were taking 50 to 64 months to train a IJN pilot!!!

Their were piolets graduating in 41, and the programe was excelerated and scaled up look at the classes I list above as examples...



mogami -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 7:33:58 AM)

Hi, Brady you do realize the number 241,000 is totally insane. Japan only built 76,000 aircraft and most of those were for the army.



Brady -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 7:58:19 AM)

"Hi, Brady you do realize the number 241,000 is totally insane**. Japan only built 76,000 aircraft and most of those were for the army. "

During the 1937-45 war , some 18,900 Yokern of all classses were killed in action out of 241,463 entering trainess. (This figure does not include the old Sohren programe priour to its incorperation into the Hei-Class Yokaren, or any of he commissioned Officer programs"

This figure 241,463 is for all trainies inducted*, not all made the cut and not all became piolets, note the figure of 18,900 Killed, then also note the examples I quote above from the other source shoing that prety much all of the piolets that graduated were KIA, this is the norm when looking through all the clases, at least the ones listed. So while they took in and trained that many to varing degrees up to and including graduating airmen not that many were eveuantualy trained.

* Note formentioned excluded programes not represented by this figure...their were more than this in other words.

** You nave sean my spelling and witnesed my devotion to lost causes, sanity is not a part of my daily existance, at lest not a substantial one[:)]



mogami -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 8:08:32 AM)

Hi, I still like you. I just imagine your posts are written in crayon.



Brady -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 8:59:51 AM)

Interesting if you look at just the dead listed above....

18,900, and you figure that prety much all of those airmen were killed and trained during the war, and note that in 45 very little traing was actualy going on and do some quick math:

To train just the dead you get about:

18,900 / 3(Years of the war in which traing was conducted on a grand scale)=6,300 per year or around 525 a month.

Even if we alow for prewar traing and reduce that figure to say 16,000 you looking at 444 a month to train just the dead.

Something to pounder is the dead for the Okinawa campagine from memory around 2,000 Japanese airmen died their, thats a big chunk of the total.

Now this is Just the dead were talking about, their were thousnads trained that did not die and thousands not included in the base figure of 18,900 as noted above.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 2:21:18 PM)

Hi Mogami
no, Rudel started flying at the start of Barbarossa, he was ferrying planes up from Greece, and a commander in the area said they needed all the pilots they could get, and he said, oh yea, how about me, the commander said, welcome, I'd get the paper work started to get the transfer started

Rudel, didn't do well, his first time though training, and had to redo his training class, once he passed, he was sent to a unit, that was being commanded by one of his instruckors, who remembered how bad he was, so would not let him fly combat

he got a fresh start someplace else and made history

(details adjusted, but with in reason)

Heartmann, started the war somewhat late, and broke every rule in the book on his first mission, but was taught by very good pilots and he was a good learner

and again, history was made

HARD_Sarge

Rudel and Pappy were my heroes when I was growing up :)



Hard Sarge -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 2:47:40 PM)

Hi Brady
well first off, let me say I agree with you on the SU planes and pilots, most in the west discount the planes made by the SU

but

okay, I do not think most times, when we say late war, we are thinking 1944, but even then, they did not have many pilots to man there CV's at the end of the year, the turkey shoot did them in

WHICH speaking of, you keep saying how many were trained, were they trained for the TURKEY SHOOT, have you ever read what happened during most of that battle ? , the in air commanders wouldn't even let the fighters break formation to fight, as they figured they lacked the skill to fly, so better off to just stay in formation and let the Hellcats attack

you ever read about the Flying Undertaker, a Recon jocky, he fought a large group of TRAINED pilots also, but, then again, I think they were JAAF, so they don't count

again on landing gear, funny, was reading some test reports on the A6m5 being flown over Washington DC in Dec 1944, couldn't get the gear to come up, another report, complained that the gear keep wanting to come down while in flight, while a third pilot complained the one landing gear was angled wrong (to be honest, they think he may of had something to do with that one)

have you ever seen the films of the late war pilot training, with the pilots sitting in barrels, in a few days, if they did well with there barrels, they were promoted to try a solo flight, if they took off and came back, they were promoted to join a combat unit, then some other poor kid took over his barrel

over all though, if you want to put up a pole and vote if the total should be raised, I will for ya, I don't think it is going to matter

but I agree with Mr Frag and Mogami, you getting the trained pilots with the new units (does a disbanded unit come back with pilots or does it have to rebuild ?)

HARD_Sarge



frank1970 -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 3:22:18 PM)

Why doesn´t someone make a scenario with flightschools and only empty squadrons to come up. Then we could all leave this messy discussion.



2ndACR -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 3:42:16 PM)

HS, the disbanded units will have to re-build. They will attempt to pool pilots from the pool when they return. If no pilots in the pool (which should occur bout mid Jan 41 for IJN) it will pull untrained pilots.



Brady -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 5:56:52 PM)

Turkey shoot, if you look at the preformance specks between the primary aponets in that battle it is pretymuch a forgon conclushion that the allies would of wone anyway, and yes your right the Japanese could of faught it better.

Landing gear, I hadent read these reports on the landing gear myself, but I have read other acounts of flight tests with other Japanese planes and never recal any serious issues with them being mentioned, other than know issues we touched on above I dont know of any peculariler issues Japan had...I dont they had a corner on the market in this regard, many planes had issues with this from all over the world at one point or another in their development.

Ya late war they had some serious issues with training that is for shure, but the postings above show that their was not a drastic drop in training until late in the war, then of course many of the newer pilets went to kamakisie units and the conventuial units retained the skilled piolets. Genda as an example formed a special N1K2-J Unit with a large percentae of Type A piolets and they did quiet well for them selfs at Okinawa.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 6:35:50 PM)

Thank you 2ndACR, I don't normally disband units, so havn't really seen any come back, so wasn't sure

that would of helped the arguement if they did come back with pilots :)

HARD_Sarge



Hard Sarge -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 6:55:27 PM)

Hi Brady
well two things

yea they could of fought better, but the hassle was they couldn't, a lot of the pilots had there hands full, just trying to fly stright, and that is why the commanders wouldn't let them break formation

(McCambell and his wingman shot down 15 planes, they started there passes at high speed and slashing, then noticed that the formation, didn't break to engage, then started making slow speed attacks, then, just joined the formation, adjusted there speeds to stay behind the plane and fired, then moved up to the next one, really, to read about it, it was made you sick

and that is what could really make it dangerous to fly and fight, today, you got 10 guys who can't keep there planes in the air, tomorrow, you got a guy who been flying since 1936)

for the landing gear, I think we are talking about different issues,the F4u had stiff Shocks, so the plane tended to bounce, but late war JP planes had Heat Treat troubles (Ma and Pa type factorys ?) and you never knew when the gear was going to snap, either landing or taking off

(which I believe, this was not just a hassle with planes or landing gear, Rifles/MG's were know to blow up, Granade fuses had a bad habit of going off early)

which again, back to the report I Was reading last night, about the officer who was in charge of trying to get JP Planes off of Saipan while it was still under attack (that is where the Zero that flown over DC came from) talks about being attacked by a JP trooper, who would smack himself in the head and then throw something at them, while they hid in a hanger, the 2nd one he threw, landed right in the middle of his men, they knew how the troops armed there Granade, so knew there were dead, turns out they were rocks, the guy was running around smacking himself in the helmet with rocks to make the other guys duck !)

oops, there I go again

if the game gets to 44/45, I do not think the pilots are going to be a issue, give yourself 50-100 pilots a month, it is not going to help, the hassle is, doing so early, and you may not get to 44

HARD_Sarge



caslug -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 10:23:40 PM)

I mention hartman as an example of the differences between jap & german planes. Hartman was in the Luft flight training for about 2 yrs(same i imagine as many jap pilots during the same timeframe) before being posted to the Eastern front(aug 42). His first mission he was shot down BUT survive then on his second mission again shot down & survive. Anyway, he didn't really get going till spring 43. If he was in an oscar or zero during the same time frame(solomon/NG campaign) he would not have lived after the first mission. More so because of flying crappy/fragile plane. Lets say he came in "trained" w/ 60-65 exp level Aug 42 and by Mar 43 he was up to 75-80 w/ ME109(much sturdy than zero/oscar). So no matter if jap players get "trained" pilots, many of future hartman/sakai's simply would still be lost due to inferior equipment during there inital intro to combat. Playing the game, I usually put newbie pilots (60-70 exp) in China to get blooded, before moving them to the pacific.

Allied players can get as many pilots as they want especially starting late 42 and onward. The problems for the allies in late 42 was getting the units to front(shipping was a much bigger obstacle than lack of replacements). By spring of 43, the transportation problem ease greatly. The USAAF in late 44 DISCHARGE over 50,000 cadets into the army ground forces because they didn't need them. It just for the JNAF even taking into the "reinforcement pool", Mogami calculate "total" incoming trained pilots in 42 at about 50-60/mo. In my game vs AI i've lost 350 planes in 4 1/2 mo(80/mo) used up my initial pool 225(lemur scen) + 35 replacement. I haven't fought a major carrier battle yet, no "coral sea". Heck, you lose about 2-3 planes/day just operation losses, lets say that JNAF lose 1-2 planes, JAAF loses 1-2 planes. Just operational losses for JNAF is conservatively 20-30 planes/mo. Are we saying HISTORICALLY the JNAF can't replace simple operational losses without dipping into the reinforcement pool? I have over 150-200 untrain JNAF pilots(35 exp) while JAAF has no problems, JAAF still has 200 pilot in pool on april 14, 1942. My observation that the 10 pilot/mo should be for CARRIER TRAINED, not total JNAF.

I think WITP is a GREAT historical learning tool, it's a give you a excellent view on the problem faced by both allied and japan. You really come to understand the window of japanese numerical & qualititive superiority is only about 9-12 mos(at most). Newbie Jap pilots coming in in late 42/early 43 were no less train than Newbie allied pilots. The BIG difference was that the newbie allied pilot stood a MUCH GREATER chance of surviving to become a veteran after several months, BECAUSE he(allied) flew a plane that was sturdy and much more likely to bring him back home than his counterpart in Rabaul. You can put a very good jap pilot in an oscar vs a avg allied pilot in a lightning, the allied pilot may not be able to shoot the oscar down, the the oscar will have a hard time catching or damaging the ligthning.



Bradley7735 -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 10:38:36 PM)

Not all plane losses result in a pilot loss. I believe that op losses have a higher chance of the pilot surviving. I'm not sure if the pilot can survive a combat loss, though.

Beta's..... Do any of you know what the chances of pilots surviving when their plane doesn't, in various situations?

I would hope that there is code written to allow a chance that the pilot survives. I know the allies placed a huge emphasis on recovering downed pilots in the war.

bc



Nikademus -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 10:45:28 PM)

people might be suprised at how many JAAF/JNAF pilots survived the demise of their planes during the opening rounds in the SRA



caslug -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/3/2004 11:43:58 PM)

"Not all plane losses result in a pilot loss. I believe that op losses have a higher chance of the pilot surviving. I'm not sure if the pilot can survive a combat loss, though. "

Then that I don't have to draw replacement pilots as quickly. JNAF gets 10 trained pilots/mo to replace operational AND combat losses. Even when you're not fighting major battles, you're still going to lose at least 10 pilots/mo. Even when you're not flying combat mission the JNAF is still flying the float planes& patrol planes, training & ASW missions and those missions incur opp loss. Again 2-3 loss/day (Total JNAF+JAAF) is not a lot when you're flying 1500-2000 sorties/day.



Zeta16 -> RE: Japan a Superpower!!! (9/4/2004 3:22:20 AM)

You shouldn't lose a lot to op loses unless you fly groups when they don't need to fly.



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