The "new" Gibraltar strategy (Full Version)

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meyerg -> The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/3/2004 4:06:00 PM)

When I first played WiF, one of the strategies was to pound through Spain to Gibraltar and start a '42 Barbarossa. If France fell quickly, you might even get Gibraltar and a '41 Barbarossa.
Now it is common to commit heavily to the Med as the Axis and take Gibraltar without going through Spain. This often involves many failed amphibious invasions and paradrops (sometimes 10+), but when you succeed you can now align Spain. Most humorously, England is almost forced to invade Portugal to get airbases to keep Gibraltar. Just a warning for the CW player that hasn't seen it.
greg



vonpaul -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/3/2004 4:30:12 PM)

doesnt seem that hard to defend against. The para and marines that would be required take a long time (4 turns) to rebuild so 10+ invasions would be quite impressive. Would be cheaper , quicker and easier to go through spain than to try multiple crap shot invasion against a fully defended rock.



meyerg -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/3/2004 5:39:08 PM)

If you are playing first loss must be corps optional rule, the chances improve. If you are playing division invasions from LS optional rule the chances improve. Look at all the Para and Marine corps/divisions the Germans and Italians have available. If you require a convoy point for sea supply, the chances improve as the Axis have a better chance of isolating Gibraltar. You can lose a lot of units to make getting the Spanish force pool + reduced US entry effect worth it.
greg



Froonp -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/5/2004 3:48:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meyerg
If you are playing first loss must be corps optional rule, the chances improve. If you are playing division invasions from LS optional rule the chances improve.

Hello,

The "Optional Rule" you are talking about (first loss must be corps) must rather be an house rule. If I'm not mislead, there's no such rule in WiF FE, and there never was.

And, just to nick pick a little, the "LS" do not exist anymore (at least with this name), it was used in WiF 5th Edition and before maybe to designate Light Ships. LS and HS (Heavy Ships) are now designated SCS (Surface Combat Ships), and all SCS can be used for Divisions Invasions.

Cheers !

Patrice



meyerg -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/6/2004 8:09:40 AM)

Thanks Patrice:
The first loss = corps was implemented in one of the WIFcom games Gibraltar fell; must have been a house rule. The new naval O-chit may make it easier to put Gibraltar out of supply too.
greg



Greyshaft -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/7/2004 12:21:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
And, just to nick pick a little, the "LS" do not exist anymore (at least with this name), it was used in WiF 5th Edition and before maybe to designate Light Ships. LS and HS (Heavy Ships) are now designated SCS (Surface Combat Ships), and all SCS can be used for Divisions Invasions.


You're absolutely right, but old habits die hard.



coregames -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/10/2004 5:58:14 AM)

I have noticed the trend you mention - trying to align Spain by invading Gibralter. This is a thankless proposition against strong CW play, and could easily cost the Axis 20 plus corps and still not succeed. Definitely a case of high-risk, high-reward! I can see launching a few invasions before France falls if Italy has the time to spare, because Spain aligned would cause France to collapse very suddenly. I still think if you want the rock after France falls, DoW Spain and get across that river line by invading in the south, ignoring (or at least, putting on the back burner) any conquest of Spain until after G is taken.



Cheesehead -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/13/2004 8:57:41 PM)

If the Axis have no intention of invading UK, and instead choose the traditional strategy of a '41 Barbarossa...how important is it to go after Gibralter? I appreciate that holding Gibralter presents another hurdle to the Allies in their efforts to knock Italy out of the war...but it also adds a garrison burden to the Axis. How many Corps are required to defend the long coast of Spain? Would those corps be more valuable in knocking out USSR? It is only a matter of time before the Allies retake Gibralter (and Spain)...maybe it only delays Allied entry into the Med by a turn or two. I am inexperienced so my comments should be viewed with agrain of salt. I ask these questions because these are issues I've been wrestling with.



YohanTM2 -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/13/2004 9:33:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

If the Axis have no intention of invading UK, and instead choose the traditional strategy of a '41 Barbarossa...how important is it to go after Gibralter? I appreciate that holding Gibralter presents another hurdle to the Allies in their efforts to knock Italy out of the war...but it also adds a garrison burden to the Axis. How many Corps are required to defend the long coast of Spain? Would those corps be more valuable in knocking out USSR? It is only a matter of time before the Allies retake Gibralter (and Spain)...maybe it only delays Allied entry into the Med by a turn or two. I am inexperienced so my comments should be viewed with agrain of salt. I ask these questions because these are issues I've been wrestling with.


If you can take out Spain and Gibralter it actually frees up a ton of troops as the entire Med is now an Axis lake (this assumes you own the Suez, can't see why you would do one w/o the other). I find it worthwhile if you get through France quickly and can continue rolling into Spain, especially if you have not Vichy'd France yet and can do a full Spain assault.



vonpaul -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/14/2004 7:38:37 AM)

not to mention that Italy is in no danger of being knocked out of the war if your fighting in spain as opposed to Italy. For the newbies italy has special conditions that make it easier to conquerer than other 'real' major powers.



YohanTM2 -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/14/2004 6:35:46 PM)

Very good point vonpaul, it was implied in my strategy but you are correct in mentioning it.



Cheesehead -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/14/2004 9:08:51 PM)

As a beginner, I'm concerned that the time and effort required to pull off the capture of Gibralter will hinder my effort to kock USSR out before USA gets fully mobilized. Taking out Spain and Gibralter adds to US entry, and the only way Axis can win is if they take out Russia. In order to do this my Wehrmacht needs to be deep into Russia (near Moscow, Lenningrad and Caucasus) by May/June 1942. You fellas are very encouraging and considering that we won't start our game unitl next month (Oct 16 is D-Day)...I'll have some more time to work up the nerve (and the tactics) to pull off an early Gibralter. Maybe if I can have France prostrate at my feet by early May/June 1940 I'll go for it. Thanks.



YohanTM2 -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/14/2004 11:09:02 PM)

No problem, but again I caution against it as your first game against a more experienced WiF opponent, especially if he is reading these posts and is anticipating your strategy [;)]



vonpaul -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (9/15/2004 7:35:12 AM)

I agree, I wouldnt do it even if you knock over France in M/J '40. I would go collect the Balkans instead IMO. As a axis player you need to sit down with your allies at the start of and make objectives, so if you are going into spain you need to start building for it in '39 not when france has fallen. Really I wouldnt get to adventerous on your first game , and there are alot of negatives for going into Russia late (which is a real possibility if going after spain)



meyerg -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (10/2/2004 6:34:19 PM)

Harry Rowland calls Gibraltar the most important hex in the game.
If you can delay Barbarosa one year to take Gibraltar and align Spain, it is probably worth it. Especially if you can bag the entire Mediterranean and put pressure on CW convoys.
Italy is indeed much easier to hold, and the Spanish force pool and extra Italians who don't have to worry about defending Italy make holding the extended Atlantic wall easier.
Some like to try to pull off a Barbarossa light in '41 and pour more forces into Russia after Gibraltar is secured. I think that is probably a good idea, as the ground force commitment to Gibraltar is minimal. It takes incredible skill as a German to pull this balancing act off. A Barbarossa with lots of AF and paratroopers missing can be difficult indeed against a good Russian player and may be worse than waiting till '42.
Finally the new naval Offensive chit may make it much easier to cut Gibraltar out of supply.
greg



vonpaul -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (10/3/2004 12:29:33 PM)

all good points and all complicated thought out strategies, not for the faint of heart and not recommeded for first timers :)



coregames -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (10/4/2004 12:24:49 AM)

quote:

If you can delay Barbarosa one year to take Gibraltar and align Spain, it is probably worth it.


This is a mighty big if. I would be interested to hear what the success ratio is for Axis teams that make a full commitment to invading G and aligning Spain, as opposed to attacking Spain. Any of you WiFfers out there who have witnessed both strategies want to share their experiences? If you can't have a good chance at success before the end of campaign season '41, this should be viewed as too risky.



vonpaul -> RE: The "new" Gibraltar strategy (10/4/2004 2:49:06 AM)

I expienced something similiar, France was a pain due to defense GS from arty (our first big WIF:FE game, we house rule defensive GS from arty out after this game - offensive still ok)
Anyway France didnt fall untill very late '40 so The Soviets managed to D/W germany in J/F '41 , Germany (Me) has built for taking out gibralatar and had few land forces to oppose do both, the smart thing to do would have been to abandon Gibraltar and go east but I tried to do both. Unfortunately for me and the rest of the Axis the Soviet player came into some good luck and rolled nothing below 7 on about 4 low level combat dice that ripped apart the east front (and due to my low unit count on the east front, no reserves to replace the shattered/dead) , end result being that Whilst I was coming close to taking the rock the SU was coming close to taking Berlin. Game over man, game over!



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