Immersion, unit details? (Full Version)

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AstroCat -> Immersion, unit details? (9/9/2004 11:50:58 PM)

Hi!

I posted this in the Korsun Pocket forum but perhaps more people are over here now, since the issue I think would be the same if I bought BiN, here it is?

I have had Korsun Pocket for a while now and I’ve had a hard time getting in to the game. I love the concept of the game and I was able to play through the tutorials and play a bit afterwards with knowing what I was doing :) but I’ve got a problem getting “immersed” in the game.

I think the biggest problem for me is the “abstractness” of the units. It would help so much if I could, for example, right click on a unit and select unit information.

This information would give me the type of equipment in the unit and the amount of troops. Even better, this would be dynamic, as I gained or lost troops and gear the stats would be adjusted. Maybe some unit history would be fun as well.
This would really, I think help me get in touch with the history of the game and make whole experience a lot more immersive. I feel at times now I'm just pushing numbers around and not tanks and troops.

I currently play a lot of the Combat Mission games and Strategic Command and I was looking for the perfect operational level game in the middle and the Decisive Battles series seemed so close.

Any suggestions or comments would be really appreciated.

Thanks!

Jordan “AstroCat”



Capitaine -> RE: Immersion, unit details? (9/10/2004 12:11:53 AM)

Originally, the SSI version of TAO had a lot of background included of the commanders of the units involved. Not quite what you're looking for, but it had, to me, a more historical flavor to it. I'd like to see some unit histories involved, but I think the changes in men/materiel would be bad b/c that's not how the game works. It would all be arbitrary b/c your losses in combat are a combination of things that are not uniformly quantifiable.

I would try and focus more on the divisions involved, and look to their general status for your immersion. The type of equipment is shown, IIRC, and you can get a good read on what the ability of a division is by looking at its component units. So maybe just adjust the level of scale you're looking at. This isn't at all like Combat Mission or other tactical games. [:)]



JSS -> RE: Immersion, unit details? (9/10/2004 1:55:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

...but I’ve got a problem getting “immersed” in the game.

I think the biggest problem for me is the “abstractness” of the units. It would help so much if I could, for example, right click on a unit and select unit information.

This information would give me the type of equipment in the unit and the amount of troops. Even better, this would be dynamic, as I gained or lost troops and gear the stats would be adjusted. Maybe some unit history would be fun as well.
This would really, I think help me get in touch with the history of the game and make whole experience a lot more immersive. I feel at times now I'm just pushing numbers around and not tanks and troops.



AstroCat,

For operational games you should not be interested in the "eaches" (i.e. 5 x M4A4 tanks lost) but rather at the combat power. KP/BIN does a tremendous job of quantifying combat power, allowing operational maneuver, and bridging tactical & strategic simulations. For a flavor of what type of equipment the unit is equipped with look at the graphic on the unit pop up. BIN/TAO4 take this a step further and list the main weapon system designation for each along with the unit's name/designation.

To get the full immersion effect play with divisional symbols showing; this provides a much better feel for how much combat power is allocated to each operation... also gives each icon much more relevance than a mere NATO symbol.

For me this is one of the most immersible games ever made[:D]

JSS



marc420 -> RE: Immersion, unit details? (9/10/2004 1:57:21 AM)

Funny how tastes vary. This is actually part of what I like about this game. I had played the TOAW series since it first came out. And in that game you can click on a unit and find out it has 17 Pz Mk III tanks and 120 trucks etc. And when you fight a battle you get a long report detailing how many machine guns an mortars you lost.

But a lot of that just becomes extra information, at least to me. If I'm in the role of an Army or Army Group commander, then how many tanks are left in each company becomes a lot of extra minutia. So I'd spend a lot of time clicking through those screens and reading those battle reports, but if I was gaining anything it was getting lost again in the information overload.

To me, the KP games give a nice level of abstraction. I can find what I need to know to make my decisions as an Army commander.

Part of this is I guess a built-in / acquired knowledge. When I see a Panzer Regiment as part of a Panzer or Mech Inf division, I've got a basic idea of what that is already. I've been playing games for more years than I should admit, so what makes up a German Panzer division at different parts of the war is kinda something I already know.

But what I really need to know as an Army commander is how effective is this division after recent fighting. The 1-2-3-4 step system in DB games shows me this at a nice, easy-to-understand abstract level. And I need to know if its supplied or not.

Also, the unit symbols tell you the basics of what's in the unit. The "X" in the box for infantry, the oval for armor, the dot for artillery.

From what I gather from the Run5 forums, they are adding a bit to this in BIN. For instance the armor units should have names that indicate what types of tanks are in the unit. The movement rules seem to have been updated so you get a better idea of how much reserve fuel the unit has (and thus how far can you push the unit beyond its normal movement). And I think the supply maps are supposed to be clearer in BIN.

If you want a lot of detail on each unit in the same scale game, look around on the internet for "The Operational Art of War - Century of Warfare Edition". Its a few years old, so maybe you can find a deal. Although personally, I've pretty much stopped playing this game since I got KP.

So I'd say you should get BIN when its available next week (or keep playing KP for awhile to see if it grows on you). To me its a very nice game system that tells you the information you need, but doesn't bog you down with too much info. And the game is subtle. The more you play it the less you miss all the complicated details and choices because the game gets exactly the right effect from less info and simpler choices. To me its a very sweet game design.



Miller Logan -> RE: Immersion, unit details? (9/10/2004 3:00:21 AM)

I third what JSS and marc420 said. For me the sort of detail found in TOAW actually prevents a feeling of immersion. I'm interested in the overall combat capability of my division to carry out the assigned attack or defense rather than in whether they lost 3 light machine guns last turn. And as mentioned, for me, the division insignias go a long way in my getting into the game.

I've played CM since the CMBO beta demo and love it but to try and transfer that kind of tactical detail to an operational game is purely cosmetic and doesn't reflect the decisions made at an operational level. As for KP, if you can, get your hands on a copy of "Hell's Gate" and read it. I'm sure that would help with the immersion factor.



Rainbow7 -> RE: Immersion, unit details? (9/10/2004 5:05:49 AM)

Highway to the Reich does a good job of presenting that detailed level of unit information, and I guess some people play the game with it in mind, but it's also playable at an abstracted level, if you desire, since abstracted information is also given to you. This latter approach is how I play.

I highly recommed HttR as well as Korsun.



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