Repost of my frustration on support thread (Full Version)

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Buck Beach -> Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/11/2004 10:46:12 PM)

Posted again here for more exposure and other player comments.

Major AI or bug disappointment here! Playing Lemur's mod under 1.21 as the Allies. I'm at mid March 1942 and I am (at least was) enjoying the hell out of all the action in the DEI and Burma and the building up in the SWPac and SoPAC while battling tooth and nail with the Jap subs of the coast of OZ. I have 2 groups of bombers, 3 P-40Es squadrons and a Catalina group in PM. Now I gave some thought to the lack of the Jap response to all my (constant activity going in and out of PM building supplies up and milk run bombings of Jap bases and shipping, but focused my attention to the other areas. Finally, I decide to expand Gili Gili with another small base unit that was occupied by the alllied forces out of Rabual since the first couple of week of the war. Sent in an AP and an AK in separate TFs. Curiousity got the best of me and I switch sides to see "What the F---" was going on.

Rabaul (only base in the area) is at level 4, has 55,000 plus in supplies, 2 groups of high experinced Betties set on Naval Attack and rest, 3 groups of high experienced Zeros for a total of 45 plus AC (all set on LR Cap) and 2 groups of recon/float planes. The Allied TFs at Gili are spotted.

There has been NO attacks out from them the whole game thus far, albeit they have reconed Buna on numerous occasions. This is a game breaker for me. I know eventually the game will be fixed by Matrix but I am stopped in my tracks for now and am very frustrated. I'm not opposed to starting the game over but for what? PBEM is not an option for me.

BTW, I re-ran several other previous turns again only to have similiar results or lack there of.



Williamb -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/11/2004 11:05:22 PM)

Betties arent the best Naval attack bombers (At least in this game)

What size and type ships are in your TF ? Maybe the Japanese planes are like subs they look for warhips instead of cargo ships?



Hartley -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/11/2004 11:10:50 PM)

I tried landing in Akyab , and 70 Nells from Singapore! showed up the next day over the invasion TF.



Tankerace -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/11/2004 11:14:29 PM)

I have been trying to hold Rangoon in my game (May '42, Allies, my scenario 27). Every time I send a resupply TF, or a Surface Combat TF to interdict a Jap landing TF, I get plastered by Sally, Betties, and Nells. Off PM, I have lost about 10 merchies, 4 destroyers, and recently the CA Australia to Betties flying out of Rabaul. All this in an AI game. Don't know what you are talking about, I haven't seen the AI perform that bad in my game.



Tankerace -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/11/2004 11:15:31 PM)

Oh yeah, almost forgot, I had the CL Adelaide put out of action by Betties flying from Truk. She is under repair at Sydney.



Buck Beach -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/11/2004 11:38:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I have been trying to hold Rangoon in my game (May '42, Allies, my scenario 27). Every time I send a resupply TF, or a Surface Combat TF to interdict a Jap landing TF, I get plastered by Sally, Betties, and Nells. Off PM, I have lost about 10 merchies, 4 destroyers, and recently the CA Australia to Betties flying out of Rabaul. All this in an AI game. Don't know what you are talking about, I haven't seen the AI perform that bad in my game.


I too have experienced their punishment in the north also. It's not that I'm concerned that a couple of Transports were missed. This may be only isolated to this one base, but, it is a very important issue there. They TF are single ship TF to avoid attention., but, single ship TF going into and out of Rangoon (while I still held it) did receive attention. Having said that I was able to rescue a couple of retreating Base units out of Akyab over a couple of four turns w/o attention.

My problem is that there have been NO,zilch, nada attacks out of Rabual since the Japs took the base in early Dec 1941. Not even against the PM base that has had almost daily bombing runs to Lae and against any ships in range for 2 months of game time. This is in addition to probably 14 single ship TFs thus far in the game.

I will run a test of a several ship surface TF under their noses (maybe a bombardment run) to try and get a response.



Tankerace -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/11/2004 11:48:16 PM)

Attacks have decreased off PM/Gilli gilli for me too. I noticed early on when I brought in an Oz and NZ division to New Guinea, Raabaul tore my transports a new one. Lately, especially after they launched a massive invasion of Buna and the SOlomons, I made a convoy run to PM unmolested. However, a supply run to Gilli Gilli was decimated, 1 or 2 tranports hit, and the cruiser Australia sunk.

Also, much more recently, after a small night action off Lunga Betties from Rabaul put a torpedo into the CA Minneapolis, which is now limping to Pearl via Canton Island.

It seems to me that single ship TFs get by, but the juicy targets get plastered.



Caranorn -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 12:42:48 AM)

From my experience, the ai seems to react with it's air units (and other assets). It just seems to be slow. I lost two cruisers (Australia or was it Canberra and Leander plus the french large destroyer) to Japanese ships finally reacting to a cruiser's presence off Rabaul tearing up their convoys for several days in a row. I also took serious damage to various cruisers around New Guinea and the coast of Burma to Japanese air attacks (Nell's mostly, possibly a few Bettys).

I haven't lost a major convoy to the ai yet, but then I either move them at great range from the ai's air or use small (not 1 ship which seems to be broken) escorted convoys that can defend themselves and if attacked won't cost me too much.

On the other hand, I have managed to run the 18th British Infantry to Siungapore as historical without a single hit on the main convoy (but they had decent air cover from Malaya and Sumatra and the supply convoy one day behind the troop convoy apparently worked as an unintended decoy (they have taken a few attacks), lastly I had worked a bit to interdict japanese air operations before my convoy got into their range (the AVG will never recover from the casualties I fear, I lost several aces in one day and a shelling cruiser force was torn to pieces (not sunk but several cripples)).

So in final, the ai seems to react to large taskforces, but usually seems to take several days to get it's act together. When you plan your movements carefully that usually means your ships have either come under your own aircover again or hve unloaded and are on the way home.

Another silly thing is how TF's seem to be handled by the ai (I also quit that game afetr checking teh ai's status). Bombardment forces in Malaya still seemed to be in place until early january at least and therefore were not available to cover other operations. On the other hand, the IJN carrier fleet had run back and forth so much without ever fueling up at a port it seems that all but one of it's ships were low on fuel (and after PH I only recall one airstrike by those carriers, though I saw them a lot and had to slow down some operations for a while). The small carriers on the otehr hand had been used offensively beyond their capacity, both (Hosho was also crippled in a port raid I tried against Saigon) having been put out of teh action by dutch bombers. Add to that kamikaze supply convoys through the straits of Mallacca (I hear that will be fixed in the next patch) and the ai game was so broken it was indeed not worth my time anymore.

Odd how from trying to refute your point I have ended up at the same conclusion, just for different reasons. Right now playing against the ai isn't much use beyond learning the game's principles. Which leaves two options (other then dropping the game), PBEM (doing that now) and soloing via the hotseat function (could use PBEM too, but that would take more time for little or no gain).

Marc aka Caran...



Tankerace -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 12:55:45 AM)

Well, my latest turn (just ran it) saw my CV task force of Munda Pt. Sink 3 AKs and a number of MSWs. Suddenly, here comes a strike of 19 Betties and a number of Zeros. I lost 1 CAP Wildcat, but they splashed 5 Betties (NOT FOW). I didn't watch the air attack, but the Hornet took 1 torpedo, and the group claims 16 Betties destroyed, and 6 damaged. Oh, the AI is there alright.

What it could be doing, is baiting you. Let you think its safe, so you send in better targets. Then blammo, your "safe" area just became Iron bottom sound.



Buck Beach -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 12:58:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Attacks have decreased off PM/Gilli gilli for me too. I noticed early on when I brought in an Oz and NZ division to New Guinea, Raabaul tore my transports a new one. Lately, especially after they launched a massive invasion of Buna and the SOlomons, I made a convoy run to PM unmolested. However, a supply run to Gilli Gilli was decimated, 1 or 2 tranports hit, and the cruiser Australia sunk.

Also, much more recently, after a small night action off Lunga Betties from Rabaul put a torpedo into the CA Minneapolis, which is now limping to Pearl via Canton Island.

It seems to me that single ship TFs get by, but the juicy targets get plastered.


Well I ran a simple test try with a 3 ship Bombardment TF on Rabaul. Took about 30 to 40 minutes of 3 day turns to get close enough to get noticed. When the TF was just off the land point off Gili Gili the LBA with Zero escort hit and turned the TF back with no damage. Conclusion is obvious (in this case) the juciy targets (war ships) get noticed and attacked while the single ship TF (and base air activity) don't attract attention.

I just had a thought, does anyone think that the Japanese sub doctrine is spilling over? Seriously.



Caranorn -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 1:28:45 AM)

I've been told there is a bug (or at least unitended feature) concerning one ship TF's and the ai. So I expect that's what you might be seing.

Also, when you checked the air units at Rabaul how was their morale and fatigue? They might be near mutiny for some outside reason, or just shuttled in the last turn and not willing to get into the planes again right away.

Though seriously I just think the ai is too slow to react, particularly when it's weakly escorted convoys to enemy owned bases (I expect they'd attack if you ran a convoy to Rabaul itself). Now that I think about it, almost all the cases where I was surprised by ai air attack on my ships involved raiding task forces (cruiser and destroyers on surface or bombardment missions).

Marc aka Caran...



Twotribes -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 2:52:57 AM)

It clearly states that if you want to be less noticed by the enemy to run single ship TF's. that is a hint given on how to evacuate for example PI.

the AI will at times attack single ship TF's it just is less likely to happen. I lost 5 to 10 AK in the Burma area running single ship TFs into rangoon and Akyab. I have no where near that level of activety at Port Morseby or Gili Gili, as I dont care to lose a bunch of ships.



Buck Beach -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 2:53:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caranorn

I've been told there is a bug (or at least unitended feature) concerning one ship TF's and the ai. So I expect that's what you might be seing.

Also, when you checked the air units at Rabaul how was their morale and fatigue? They might be near mutiny for some outside reason, or just shuttled in the last turn and not willing to get into the planes again right away.

Though seriously I just think the ai is too slow to react, particularly when it's weakly escorted convoys to enemy owned bases (I expect they'd attack if you ran a convoy to Rabaul itself). Now that I think about it, almost all the cases where I was surprised by ai air attack on my ships involved raiding task forces (cruiser and destroyers on surface or bombardment missions).

Marc aka Caran...


They were top notch and ready for bear, better than a fine edged sword. There was absolutely no reason why they shoudn't be kicking the crap out of everything they can reach and with their range that includes a lot of territory.



Tankerace -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 3:09:46 AM)

As to sub doctrine, I play with both on. Japanese subs (far less than Allied subs) attack merchant shipping, and so does the AI. I don't think it is that, but you never know.



Graycompany -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 5:46:50 AM)

I am playing as the Allied player and I am in mid july 42 against IJN AI.
the Ai is in rabual, and have taken most of the smaller bases down the slot, I have a small force in lunga, and they have landed on the tip of the Isle closer to rabual, as I have mined the port area of lunga, and have about 40 marine fighters on henderson. The Ai has bombed Port morseby and bombed lunga, both during the day an at night. The AI has also made raids at cookstown an along the the coast against shipping anytime I have a group of ships (say 5 or more) move with out fighter escort. The AI subs hound me up an down Aussie coast. 3 weeks ago a AI Carrier Task force chased my smaller Carrier task force back from supporting a supply run to lunga almost all the way back to sydney, then when I thought they had left, I moved back toward nomeua, and they chased me again. They have made a small landing in lae, and I have seen heavy shipping traffic outside of truk recently. I suppose every game is different, but as far as I am concerned the AI is playing a wonderful game, an I am enjoying it. I think that we sometimes think that If the AI dosent do what you think it should be doing, that the game is not as good as you want it to be, but what you should understand, that for their to be replay value, I dont want it to do the same thing everytime, and from what I read here, I think there is going to be alot of replay value.



Buck Beach -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 5:53:23 AM)

Go figure!!! The next game day after the subject of my post, PM got hit by 16 Betties escorted by 13 zeros. They'll be "so solly" later that they let me build up the base for 3 1/2 months (not to mention staffing Gili Gili) before contesting the airspace and the area. I guess I'm back on tract until 1.3, when I plan on starting over with all the knowledge I've gained so far.

Buck out



Tankerace -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 5:54:14 AM)

THe old adage "becareful what you wish for" comes to mind here. [:D]



BartM -> RE: Repost of my frustration on support thread (9/12/2004 1:43:52 PM)

While looking at the Japaneese, did you look at their reinforments and pools of a/c ? Perhaps if the AI is low (at a certain point) it doesn't fly those planes until the pool is increased ? Just a thought to all this.

I have had both sides to this in three seperate games, either the Japaneese do nothing, with huge forces sitting around, or they completely slaughter me :) (this is on hard,very hard difficulty, "historical really should be renamed "tutoral")

what was the AI setting at ? :) the lower from Very Hard the worse it seems to act at times as well



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