Land based air suggestion (Full Version)

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underdog -> Land based air suggestion (3/19/2001 10:36:00 PM)

Hello... Good idea. I will talk it over with Gary and David. Thanks... Michael Wood This subject may have already been discussed, but I'll throw it out here for consideration just in case. Could there be a provision to set a limit to the maximum range land based air from a given base will attack out to? In PW it is frustrating as the Japanese to see your Bettys attack an ememy base, or a convoy at an enemy base, out of the range of escorting Zeroes and get slaughtered by the enemy fighters. You could also have your attack planes wait to attack until the enemy task force is in range of your heavier weapons (torpedoes, 2000# bombs, etc.),instead of attacking at long range with lighter bomb loads. It would also allow you to coordinate the attack of shorter and longer range attack planes so they all went after a TF at one time, rather than several piecemeal attacks. I picture it as something similar to the way you set reaction ranges for task forces in Pacific War. If you can do that, I wouldn't think what I'm suggesting would be difficult.



underdog -> (3/21/2001 2:55:00 AM)

Another somewhat related subject came up in a conversation I just had. In PW, you can give army land based air squadrons naval interdiction orders, or you can give them night bombing orders, but there is no way to order them to conduct nightime naval interdiction attacks. Or course, an army land based air squadron would have to have very high experience to give such an attack any realistic chance for success, but you should be able to do it. Just another thought for WITP. This really is somewhat of a minor point though. Since you can't include everything, this is probably an enhancement we could live without if neccesary.



madflava13 -> (3/21/2001 3:43:00 AM)

While this would be a neat addition, I think if you look at the historical results, it is probably not as necessary. From my limited knowledge, the Japanese conducted most of the land based night shipping missions. These were generally against the US invasion forces during the island-hopping campaign. From what I've read, these attacks generally did not succeed. There were occasional interceptions by night fighters, but the overall effect of these attacks was more nuisance than anything else. IMHO, this is would be an addition that probably shouldn't make the final cut of features. Of course thats just my opinion, and I welcome anyone else's input...



Supervisor -> (3/21/2001 7:25:00 PM)

Wasn't the 'Chicago' sunk in a night attack way south of Guadalcanal in February 43?



madflava13 -> (3/21/2001 9:26:00 PM)

I know at least one Jeep carrier was damaged, and other misc. ships off the Gilberts, but I'm not sure about the Chicago...



Warpup -> (3/23/2001 10:05:00 AM)

Note that the PBY Catalina was used for night ship interdictions, and there was even a unit of Catalinas called the "Black Cats" which had a black paint scheme and speciallized in this type of operation. The P-61 "Black Widow" was also used in this role I think, or at least in other night roles. The Beaufighter was actually a nightfighter with radar in the nose. It would probably be somewhat effective in a night naval interdiction role given that equipment and it's torpedo capability. I'm not sure what time of day the British torpedoed the Italian BBs in Taranto, but maybe that was a night raid. Does anybody know??? :rolleyes:



Jon Kan -> (3/23/2001 10:48:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Warpup: I'm not sure what time of day the British torpedoed the Italian BBs in Taranto, but maybe that was a night raid. Does anybody know??? :rolleyes:
Yes, it was occured at the mid-night of 11th-12th Nov. 1941, the Italian battleships was illuminated by the moonlight. The Swordfishs fly so low that occasionally the wheel of the an aircraft grazed the surface of the water!



Rich Dionne -> (3/23/2001 12:33:00 PM)

Underdog, Regarding your Pacwar comment about night naval interdiction attacks:
quote:

Originally posted by underdog: Another somewhat related subject came up in a conversation I just had. In PW, you can give army land based air squadrons naval interdiction orders, or you can give them night bombing orders, but there is no way to order them to conduct nightime naval interdiction attacks. Or course, an army land based air squadron would have to have very high experience to give such an attack any realistic chance for success, but you should be able to do it. Just another thought for WITP.
At least some land-based air in Pacwar will conduct night naval interdiction. I know that IJN LBA such as the Betty will conduct a night naval interdiction attack. The airgroup experience level needs to be very high (I think above 85), and it needs to have night operation orders. I think this holds true for all IJN, USN, and USMC LBA tac bombers, dive bombers, and torpedo bombers. Regards, Rich Dionne



Paul Goodman -> (3/24/2001 7:21:00 AM)

Yes, definitely the Japanese Betty's attack at night. I've had some real misfortunes there. And night kamikaze's can ruin your day (well, night actually). Strangely, the PBY's operating off of New Guinea (the Black Cats) seem to have been the most effective of all these. I hope we will be able to model these aircraft. The night kamikaze were, in actuality, rather ineffectual. One of the few humorous stories my father related (a survivor of the Atlanta; on the Boston during this event) involved gun flashes on the horizon, then a single twin engine aircraft flies the entire length of the fleet at very low altitude, fired at by literally thousands of guns, is never hit, but apparently the pilot was too disoriented by the gunfire to acquire a target. The aircraft disappeared out of view astern. Paul



underdog -> (3/26/2001 12:13:00 AM)

To Rich Dionne, Yes, I knew land based naval aircraft would do night naval attacks, but I was talking about army planes. It's probably not that big a deal overall. If a naval air group needs about 85 experience to try it, and army planes experience for naval attack is (experience squared)/100, then it would require a army air group with experience of about 92 to attempt it. Just because they could theoretically attempt it though, doesn't mean it would have much chance of being successful in doing damage. Can you do an Okha bomb attack at night? That could be dangerous since they'd presumably avoid most of the fighters, if the Bettys had high enough experience to try it.



Reg -> (4/20/2001 3:06:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Warpup: Note that the PBY Catalina was used for night ship interdictions, and there was even a unit of Catalinas called the "Black Cats" which had a black paint scheme and speciallized in this type of operation.
I am not sure about USN "Black Cat" Squadrons but the four RAAF Catalina squadrons (also coloured and known as Black Cats) were involved mainly in patrol, level bombing, search and rescue and convoy shadowing roles (day and night) until diverted to the very effective night mining campaign in early 1943. I cannot find evidence they were used in night interdiction role though they did claim a number of ships sunk.
quote:

The P-61 "Black Widow" was also used in this role I think, or at least in other night roles.
The P-61 was a night fighter was it not?? (Though I think it may have done some ground attack late in it's career).
quote:

The Beaufighter was actually a nightfighter with radar in the nose. It would probably be somewhat effective in a night naval interdiction role given that equipment and it's torpedo capability.
More accurately, the Beaufighter was a very effective attack aircraft that also had a nightfighter variant. The nightfighter variant was not used in the Pacific as far as I know and certainly not by the RAAF. Many ships were claimed by thre RAAF Beaufighters but they were mostly day victories. (My sources on the aircraft used in Burma/Far East by the British is less complete).
quote:

Originally posted by underdog: To Rich Dionne, Yes, I knew land based naval aircraft would do night naval attacks, but I was talking about army planes.
Extract from history of 8 Squadron RAAF. "In August 1943 the unit moved to Goodenough Island and from there commenced night attacks against shipping and various land targets in the New Britian area - in particular Rabaul. While not overtly successful in the torpedo bombing role, a small force of Beauforts gained a notable success on the night of December 4 when a convoy was attacked in the approaches of Rabaul's Simpson Harbour. Despite heavy anti-aircraft which shot down the Beaufort captained by Squadron Leader N T Quinn, one 6834 tonne ship was torpedoed and sunk."
quote:

It's probably not that big a deal overall. If a naval air group needs about 85 experience to try it, and army planes experience for naval attack is (experience squared)/100, then it would require a army air group with experience of about 92 to attempt it. Just because they could theoretically attempt it though, doesn't mean it would have much chance of being successful in doing damage.
The above example was fairly typical example of the many night raids on Rabaul Harbour. I believe that they were costly with a fairly low return on the effort. The mining campaign was to be far more effective though it probably wasn't known at the time. I hope this contributes something useful to the discussion, Reg. (Sources available) [ April 20, 2001: Message edited by: Reg ]



Rich Dionne -> (4/20/2001 9:09:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by underdog: Yes, I knew land based naval aircraft would do night naval attacks, but I was talking about army planes.
Yes, army planes are currently limited in the naval interdiction role in Pacwar. I'm pretty sure that they will not make a night naval interdiction attack.
quote:

Originally posted by underdog: Can you do an Okha bomb attack at night? That could be dangerous since they'd presumably avoid most of the fighters, if the Bettys had high enough experience to try it.
Yes, a night Okha attack would be nasty! This cannot occur in Pacwar, as a Betty on night operations will only attack with torpedoes or bombs. Regards, Rich



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