Capturing objectives on the last turn? (Full Version)

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DonStone -> Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/20/2004 2:13:52 PM)

Easy to believe I might have missed something, but ...

In my first solo game, Cherbourg, I played the Allies and captured the "big" objective in Cherbourg on the last turn. I did not receive either the one-time capture VPs, or the turn 8 VPs?

Is this right? Wrong? Did I miss something?

(on the final map display, it was within American lines and the ownership flag was American)



elmo3 -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/20/2004 2:28:44 PM)

A similar question just came up over at Run5. Hopefully we'll get a clarification when SSG wkaes up "down under" tomorrow morning.



Carl Myers -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/20/2004 4:59:23 PM)

You get points not by capturing an objective but for holding an objective. You do not get points for an objective until after your opponents turn(if your opponent counterattacks and takes it back, you have not held the objective)



DonStone -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/20/2004 5:06:53 PM)

Understood -- but I captured it on my turn 8, then went through the German turn 8, and then the game ended. Certainly, I'd think that should have counted.

(it's debatable whether or not the 2nd player can/should be able to capture things on the very last player-turn of the game and get credit -- but the 1st player has held it through the enemy player-turn)



freeboy -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/20/2004 5:23:38 PM)

this is waiting an official SSG responce, the r5 forum brought this up.



JSS -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/20/2004 5:23:53 PM)

Don,

The VP rule for capturing objectives is you get the bonus based on the turn you capture it... you get the VPs for each turn you control the location. You don't control it until the start of your next turn (its disputed until the start of your next turn).

This is based on my experience... the housekeeping for capture on last game turn is not clear to me (since there is no start of your next turn).

JSS



elmo3 -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/21/2004 4:25:49 PM)

Right JSS, and that is the issue. What happens on the last turn? If player 2 does not recapture then player 1 has effectively held it for a full turn since if there was another turn he would meet the requirement at the beginning of his turn. Of course there isn't another turn so we need a clarification from SSG please.



pterrok -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/21/2004 4:54:35 PM)

Guys, we don't need anyone official to answer this...

Just load up a small scenario, say Falaise, and play human vs human. Move the defenders out of the way and note the points and projected score at the beginning of the next to last turn for the defender. On the last turn, note the points for the attacker--and his projected--then move into an objective and note the score and projected. Do it again for the Defender then see what comes up at the end...

In KP the attacker would see a projected score that was off by the amount of points for objectives in the defenders hands as counted on the LAST turn. So if a city has three point ranges, it's off by the last one IF that actually encompasses the end of the game.

As far as I recall, you would not get the capture points for something captured on the last turn.

BiN is a new beast and I haven't done any testing. I'm at work and real life is likely to interfere tonight, but SOMEONE will have time to run the simple test above before then! (I suspect SSG fixed the erroneous projected score for the Attacker but that he still won't get points for a capture on the final turn.)



elmo3 -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/21/2004 5:33:14 PM)

There are really three questions that need answers:

1. Does player 1 get capture points if an objective is captured on the last turn and player 2 does not recapture it? IMO this answer should be yes.

2. Does player 1 get objective points if they capture on the last turn and the defender fails to recapture? Not clear as he didn't really hold it a full turn.

3. Does player 2 get objective points if they hold an objective for the entire last turn? IMO this answer should be yes.

Anecdotal evidence is fine but these are pretty straightforward questions for SSG to answer when they have the time.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/22/2004 11:54:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DonStone

Easy to believe I might have missed something, but ...

In my first solo game, Cherbourg, I played the Allies and captured the "big" objective in Cherbourg on the last turn. I did not receive either the one-time capture VPs, or the turn 8 VPs?

Is this right? Wrong? Did I miss something?

(on the final map display, it was within American lines and the ownership flag was American)


This is how it works.

Assume that you occupy an objective on Turn n. You get no points for this, and you are not considered to 'own' the objective. In essence the opposing player has one turn to immediately retake the objective without giving away any victory points.

At the start of *your turn* on Turn n+1, if you still control the objective, it's now considered yours. You get any points that may be awarded for capture in this turn. Also, if you get points per turn these are also now awarded, but awarded as if you had controlled the objective on Turn n (essentially they are backdated).

This rule applies at the end of the game exactly as it does for the rest of the game. Since there isn't any Turn n+1, neither side will get any points for objectives they 'capture' on the very last turn.

This may seem a bit tough but it is fair for both sides. If we allowed 'capture in the last turn to count, then side two would get an advantage as they could reverse captures by side one, but their own would be safe from challenge.

More importantly, it restricts 'gamey' tactics predicated on the fact that game will end at a known time. For a capture to count, both sides will have to withstand one turn of possible counterattack.

Gregor



elmo3 -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/22/2004 1:35:53 PM)

Thanks for the clarification Gregor.

What about the case where player 2 already controls an objective on the last turn of the game. Will he get the per turn points for that last turn? Are they added to the final score after the game ends?

Thanks again.

Edit - Just to clarify using your example: Player 2 occupied an objective on turn n-1. On turn n (the final turn of the game) he will get the per turn points for turn n-1. Since there is no turn n+1 your answer above implies that he will not get the points for holding the objective on turn n. Is that correct? If so then it is meaningless to assign per turn points for the last turn of a scenario.



Capitaine -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/22/2004 3:27:56 PM)

Good point, elmo! I think in my "Overlord" scn. that I concluded, the game DID award the Germans the last turn VP's for obj's they'd held all game. At least it seemed like they did. Of course, if you turn it around to the Allies (side one), maybe there's some discrepancy that needs fixing since side one would get shortchanged one turn's VP's (the last). The question is thus at what precise point of the game are VP's awarded?



elmo3 -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/22/2004 4:25:45 PM)

Gregor said that if you still control an objective at the start of turn n+1 then you get the points at that time. That implies that neither side ever gets points for the last turn since there will never be an n+1 turn when turn n is the last turn. That's fine if true but it makes a big difference in allocating points for objectives during scenario design since none will be awarded for the last turn.

Capitaine - How did you determine more points were awarded after the game concluded? Did the total for your side change irrespective of unit losses?



DonStone -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/22/2004 5:27:48 PM)

Did a quick experiment.

I believe this is how it works --

1. You're listed as getting 10 pts per turn, turn 3-5

2. At the start of your turn 3, you receive 10 pts for having held it during the entirety of your previous turn.

I.e., if the VP listing is for turn 3, you get it for holding it from the start of turn 2 to the start of turn 3. So listings for the last turn make sense -- the VP bonus is for holding it from turn N-1 to turn N.



elmo3 -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/22/2004 7:31:57 PM)

That could be the answer. Thanks.



freeboy -> RE: Capturing objectives on the last turn? (9/22/2004 7:36:56 PM)

My understanding is you get "holding" points if you control the last turn start to finish



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