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Ranger-75 -> (10/4/2001 11:07:00 AM)

Heydreitch (or however his name is spelled) was killed in CZ and it was Pieper who was killed in his apt in France in the '50s. Pieper commanded the 1st SS PZ Rgt of the 1st SS PZ Div and he was the infamous "murderer at Malmedy" in Dec 1944. Deitrich lived for a quite a while after the war.




Chiteng -> (10/4/2001 4:50:00 PM)

Pieper beat that rap in the world court no less. I wonder if the Czechs feel that killing Heydrich
was worth it today. Be intresting to find out.




TIMJOT -> (10/4/2001 9:00:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Chiteng:
Pieper beat that rap in the world court no less. I wonder if the Czechs feel that killing Heydrich
was worth it today. Be intresting to find out.

How did Pieper beat that rap? Malmedy was such a notorious incident. Seems ridiculous to me that someone directly involved in the atrocity could walk, while someone like Von Runstedt was found guilty. I am assumeing it was the old "just following orders defence".




BigE -> (10/5/2001 4:16:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
Ringbolt, the guns at Singapore were 15" not 18" and they could fire onto the landward side, but the problem was they had only armour piercing shells, no HE shells. What a lack of foresight. The USMC Defense Bns had 5" guns, these were effective at Wake where the Marines sunk 2 IJN destroyers in the first landing attempt. The US marines actually moved their guns (with the defense Bns) around during the war, some of were used at guadalcanal, etc. Bataan didn't have any coastal artillery, but Corregidor did (5" or 8") and since the two are the same hex in Pacwar, that base should have them in the new game. I'm not sure of the sizes of the US west coast shore batteries, but I've walked around the Presidio in San Francisco and saw the huge emplacements. 12" or 15" would not have been unusual. I also walked the sites of some other positions about 50-100 miles south of SF and saw the very dominating emplacements set high up on the shore with an extremely long field of view. Any attack on the west coast of the US would have run up against these emplacements. Any shore batteries could make a mess of an attempted landing (except at normandy where the allies blakneted the area in all aspects of combat power). They should be incoroprated into the new game.
Mike,
around Corregidor, other islands sported a very impressive array of guns, notably Fort Drum ("The Concrete Battleship"), with turrets of twin 12" guns.
U.S. continental coastal artillery was usually 12", 14", or 16" maximum, and those last ones were *really!* something you don't want sitting on the shore invasion quadrant of your (poor) choice.
Singapore didn't have any 18" guns, but 15" guns for sure.
All in all, coastal artillery will be a great addition to the game, I think, and it'll teach the AI to capture my dear Wake Island.




grumbler -> (10/5/2001 5:11:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Chiteng:
Pieper beat that rap in the world court no less.
Not according to The History Place. According to that site, Pieper was sentenced to death by a US Army tribunal for the malmedy massacre. However, the methods of interrogation and the use of mock trials in obtaining confessions was so controversial that the death sentences were not carried out. In the 1950s, the sentences began to be reduced. Pieper was released from prison in 1956, the last of the convicts to be freed. He died in a mysterious house fire on Bastille Day 1976, aged around 61. No mention is made of the world court, not does it seem that he "beat the rap" although he cheated the hangman.




Chiteng -> (10/6/2001 5:57:00 AM)

alas Grumbler I have not read that book nor
do I intend to make it a priority. As for beating the Rap the information I have
quoting from memory of course, he claimed
that his orders were to precede his advance
with a 'wave of terror' and he of course was
backed up by the mountains of evidence of fuhrer
orders. The strict interpetation of those orders
got him off that particular hook. This doesent mean he wasnt held on some other charge. It is just like Ramke suing people for saying that
the ONLY reason he held out so long in Brest?
was because he wanted diamonds for his cross.
He lost the suits. I think it was 'The Bitter Woods' that I referenced that. Been a long time.




GET TRANSPT -> (11/18/2001 3:54:00 AM)

It's great watching you guys post stuff as history only to have others correct you. And then others correct the correctors, and so on without end. Now that's history to me. I'll join in. I recall Joachin Piper dying. I read it in TIME magazine when I was 13. He was quietly living in France, of all places, I think in Alsace or the Vosges region. It was pretty much suspected as foul play. I find the discussion of Yamamoto fascinating, with the usual public message board essentializing of "national characteristics". Useful, but there are always exceptions since we cannot get in anyone's mind except our own (at best!). We can make educated guesses based on evidence, testimony, human patterns, etc., sure. Also, great sea changes do occur in supposedly ironclad "national" characteristics. People are millions of idiosyncratic individuals, not just one monochrome nation. What fascinates me about war is that humans spend so much effort, intelligence, resources, etc. to destroy and kill each other's effort, intelligence, and resources. It remains for postwar commentators to try to sort out the ethical and moral effects of wartime. This message board mirrors that as posters try to come to grips with the decision to assassinate Yamamoto, which I support marginally, but who knows how I might feel as a US commander in 1943? I can only guess in 2001. To simulate the maximum # of possibilities in a wargame is laudable!. War tends to be far less predicable and regular than peacetime, as most humans will never really enjoy killing each other predictably and regularly as much as say, posting in message boards, playing basketball or taking fishing vacations in the south pacific. And sex, always sex. I support the idea of simulations like WAR IN THE PACIFIC allowing for variability in allegiances, assassinations, loyalties, even "cowardice" (cowards can become heroes in a second). Not every Japanese serviceman killed himself. There were prisoners from the first day of conflict. like that unfortunate midget sub guy at Pearl Harbor. He lived for decades afterwards, btw!There were cowards of all stripes, as well as suicides and assassinations in all nations at war. In reprisal for Heydrich's death, the Germans killed an entire Czech village! How about adding civilian deaths to a war simulation? Civilian deaths have existed since the dawn of war (read the Bible) and Gary Grigsby's PACIFIC WAR attempted to simulate that with "civilian casualties" when industry was bombed. The Philippines was much opposed to the Japanese occupation for its many depredations on the civilian population in contrast to the much more pro-Japanese sentiment in the DEI, where the Dutch had been substantially harsher colonists that the Americans. Also, the Japanese administrators of NEI were probably wiser there. How to simulate the battle of Manila in '45 with about 20,000 Japanese casualties( mostly KIA), maybe 5,000 US( mostly WIA), and over 100,000 civilians killed? Yes, add the Yamamoto assassination, but also allow for him to become despondent/depressed. In Japanese civilian/military/Imperial government
from 1931-45, many were pro-western, anti- militarist, and possibly even "cowards". Hirohito himself is a complex case. He appears now more complicit in starting/prolonging the war but his role in ending the war is also critical. Design a randomizer(s). Make leaders(and their troops) suffer a % ofsuicide, surrender, collaboration, enlightened or despotic administration or occupied peoples, "depression", civilian casualties, etc. And randomize it. Nothing will ever be certain, except uncertainty.
I won't even begin to post about "Yamamoto's Ghost"!
Cheers Sergio




GET TRANSPT -> (11/18/2001 4:00:00 AM)

Wow, long post.




Ranger-75 -> (11/20/2001 12:08:00 PM)

GT stated:
"The Philippines was much opposed to the Japanese occupation for its many depredations on the civilian population in contrast to the much more pro-Japanese sentiment in the DEI, where the Dutch had been substantially harsher colonists that the Americans. Also, the Japanese administrators of NEI were probably wiser there. " The reasons for the disparity of treatment between the Phillipines and the NEI were as follows: 1. The Jaspanese wanted to be able to exploit the resources of the NEI and needed labor to effect such exploitation. The Phillipines were comparatively devoid needed resources. 2. While the Japanese had a fondness for both the Dutch and the British (they had alliances with both in the past), they truly hated the Americans for many reasons some valid, most invalid (from my point of view). This hatred went back for 100 years.




madflava13 -> (12/7/2001 4:54:00 AM)

Ivan-
Several posts back you mentioned how the US always tries to kill the other sides' best leaders. You named Hitler and Rommel. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just never heard of any attempts on Rommel. I know his staff car was shot up by a fighter, but that was coincidental. Have you heard of a different attempt? Also, the only real attempt I know of against Hitler was the one his own officers plotted. I never heard of any US involvement, did you?




madflava13 -> (12/7/2001 4:59:00 AM)

Chiteng-
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you about Yamamoto. Even assuming he got depressed as you hypothesize, I still think he would have picked a different way to end it. He couldn't have known the codes were compromised for sure. Why not pick something a little more likely to succeed?




Chiteng -> (12/7/2001 7:19:00 AM)

Well it is just a theory.
I cant tell you what 'truth' is.
I think it is an interesting sidedoor
into overlooked possibility. It is equally possible he didnt know
anything of the kind. Maybe more than equally possible. He is dead....and that is sad.




madflava13 -> (12/7/2001 9:19:00 AM)

Chiteng-
I agree with that. I didn't intend to attack you, if it came across like that, i was just disagreeing. Its sad he's dead, but to be honest, I wouldn't want to speculate how many more losses the US would have taken with him calling the shots...




Adnan Meshuggi -> (12/7/2001 7:35:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by madflava13:
Ivan-
Several posts back you mentioned how the US always tries to kill the other sides' best leaders. You named Hitler and Rommel. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just never heard of any attempts on Rommel. I know his staff car was shot up by a fighter, but that was coincidental. Have you heard of a different attempt? Also, the only real attempt I know of against Hitler was the one his own officers plotted. I never heard of any US involvement, did you?

Hi, as i know the story,
in 1941 and 42 the Special Forces tried to "capture" Rommel, that means to take him with them or, if this should be impossible, kill him. I knew from one nearly success, the sas (?) attacked his HQ, but he wasn´t there...




madflava13 -> (12/8/2001 12:19:00 AM)

Wow, I never heard that before. I'll definitely have to read about it.




Chiteng -> (12/8/2001 8:26:00 AM)

There was a special forces raid on Rommel but
they only killed his servant. It turns out he was in Berlin at the time. The raid was on some house
in Libya? but like I said he wasnt home.




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