Great game but very disapointed with matrix

Great game but very disapointed with matrix (Full Version)

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DBeves -> Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 1:01:25 PM)
Ok... It is a great game.... Great Map... Great System.... BUT....And this really baffles me.... Why is there no full Landing to Falaise scenario included. I dont object to the price so much but considering the amount of flak Matrix have received over it this Full scenario SHOULD have been in there...I even saw a post or something official from matrix saying that they "expected" that a user somewhere out there would create one (quite a bizarre statement in my view)...I'm sorry guys but this scenario SHOULD have been a given for the price you charged for this.... Sorry ... but I feel I'm playing half a game with the scenarios included. Is there somelimitaion on the game system that prevented this ?

freeboy -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 1:14:20 PM)
The gaming r5 community has made over a dozen add ons for the predisecor to BIN, available free of charge. I expect the "full" battle is high on the list of user made scens, along with many more.... fyi Matrix is the publisher, SSG is the designer and the game came from these folks / as well as Bin user made you will see a lot of the Korson scenarios, including the user ones "ported" to Go BIN.. hope that helps...

e_barkmann -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 1:29:55 PM)
note that the name of the game is Battles in Normandy not what if's in Normandy [:)]

JSS -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 1:48:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DBeves Ok... It is a great game.... Great Map... Great System.... BUT....And this really baffles me.... Why is there no full Landing to Falaise scenario included. <snip> Sorry ... but I feel I'm playing half a game with the scenarios included. Is there somelimitaion on the game system that prevented this ? DBeves, That type of mega-monster campaign was never advertised to the best of my knowledge. The following is from the SSG website: "Two monster campaign scenarios, D-Day to Cobra and Cobra to Failaise plus eight smaller scenarios will cover every important aspect of this critical campaign." In terms of scenario size the two campaigns are about as big as most people will want to play. I have yet to finish a PBEM game that's over 32 turns. The original TAO monster campaign at 64 turns was simply too long. Games were always decided by turn 32. Same has held true when playing 48 turn KP monster campaign. As Freeboy noted above having the Mega-monster campaign done by Run5 is a very reasonable discussion. Rob and Scott make battles that are of the highest quality; a number of other players are making great scenarios too. I would take a crack at this but already have 4 battles and two scenarios underway. Next up for me is Market Garden. JSS

DBeves -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 2:45:41 PM)
Yes I am well aware of the fact that the full campaign was not advertised - I still bought it (probably in the hope that the were joking). I am also well aware of the Run5 community and have played a couple of the excellent scenarios - and I certainly hope that the full one is high on the list as thats the one I want and hoped would be in this game. I am also aware of the fact that Matrix is a publisher of this game not developer - does that mean they are doing this for nothing then ? and did not take a part of my money so its not legitimate for me to complain about this to them. As far as the statement that SSG concluded that the included scenarios are about as big as anyone wants to play goes then I simply don't agree. Why then contradict yourself by saying that the Run5 Community will provide one ? If know one wants to play this why would they do it. Personally I don't consider a 70 turn game anything like a "monster" as you put it. (try the 750 turn HPS D-Day full scenario). What disapoints me is that for the money I would have expected a full history scenario - not have to hope a user community provides me with one. Seems to me SSG had all the info there just that they couldn't be bothered to include the full one by way of a sense of completeness and for a Ł50 game by way of a sense of value for money to their customers. And I say again I would beg to differ that a 72 turn full campaign scenario is NOT something people would have wanted.

wodin -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 3:11:25 PM)
I thought the game cost Ł39? Thats the price of a fair few games Ive seen out and about.

Black Cat -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 3:31:49 PM)
Not piling on here, but I also hope for a complete single campaign from D day to and including Falaise and as one of the many who just play the AI and hardly consider a 32 turn/ day compaign long. Oh, and when you add in the cost in ink cartriges/paper of printing out the 110 page manual - tutorial your looking at $100+ for the Game.

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 4:22:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Black Cat Not piling on here, but I also hope for a complete single campaign from D day to and including Falaise and as one of the many who just play the AI and hardly consider a 32 turn/ day compaign long. Oh, and when you add in the cost in ink cartriges/paper of printing out the 110 page manual - tutorial your looking at $100+ for the Game. Whoever is doing your printing must love you. I have a vision of Chico Marx in his shop totting up the price for the 57 colour pages and you leaving without a shirt.

Black Cat -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 4:30:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prester John quote: ORIGINAL: Black Cat Not piling on here, but I also hope for a complete single campaign from D day to and including Falaise and as one of the many who just play the AI and hardly consider a 32 turn/ day compaign long. Oh, and when you add in the cost in ink cartriges/paper of printing out the 110 page manual - tutorial your looking at $100+ for the Game. Whoever is doing your printing must love you. I have a vision of Chico Marx in his shop totting up the price for the 57 colour pages and you leaving without a shirt. Yes , I do love myself since that`s who printed it, BTW the manual and tutorial come to 116 color pages. I have a vision of you failing 3rd. grade math.

RobertRasmussen -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 5:29:13 PM)
It seems strange to me too that SSG didn't include a full campaign. I suppose they have their reasons and I'm kind of curious to hear them. I can't see why a 70 turn game would be too long. At least not for us playing against the AI or against ourselves. And if PBEM players preferred shorter games they could pick the 32 turns sceanrios. I suppose the problem could be play balance. Or perhaps the full campaign will be released as an add-on kinda like Across the Dnepr [:)] Robert

VicKevlar -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 5:30:39 PM)
Alrighty......knock off the personal shots. Got it?

DBeves -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 6:13:30 PM)
Yes well - I certainly hope they don't make it like ATD - although that one was worth it - if they charge me another 14 quid for a scenario that should have been in the original game that really would be taking the P***. I connection to my original post ... Does anyone know if someone IS working in a full campaign scenario and when its likely to appear ?

Marc von Martial -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 10:01:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DBeves Yes well - I certainly hope they don't make it like ATD - although that one was worth it - if they charge me another 14 quid for a scenario that should have been in the original game that really would be taking the P***. Why should the ATD addon been part of Korsun Pocket? KP is about the battle of the Cherkassy couldron 1944. Not the german advance towards Moscow in 1941.

Toby42 -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 10:54:04 PM)
I think that the game is great as delivered. Personally I get put off by the Extra Large scenario's, so the selection is OK for me. I also know that Run 5 will contribute some very good scenario's to the cause. I originally was put off by the price and was going to pass on this, even though I liked KP quite a bit. But I caught the fever and couldn't help myself. I even spent three hours downloading the wrong program (thanks Digital River). The scenario's available were listed, so people were not buying a pig in a poke. There were plenty of AAR's, so there was a lot of feedback and questions answered before the release. But everyone is different. That's why they make Ford's and Chevy's.

pterrok -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 11:09:14 PM)
Somewhere on the Run5 site was the simple explanation--it takes a very long time to try to even remotely play balance something with that many turns. I guess they could throw together the OOB and the historical weather and say go to it, but would you complain if it was drastically unbalanced one way or the other? Playing a game for that long to try and see how many VPs you need, WHAT the VPs should be for the cities AND the units becomes a monumental task. Would it be neat to have? Sure. But I'd also like it to be a GAME, and that means it should be reasonably fair. Would you have wanted to wait another couple of months [:@] to get this with the purchase of the game? Especially when it's likely to be done by someone for free? [:D]

Hartford688 -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 11:10:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DBeves Yes I am well aware of the fact that the full campaign was not advertised - I still bought it

freeboy -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 11:27:09 PM)
Dbeves I know both Rob, run 5 and myself have expressed interest in this, it is high on the list but to do this correctly takes time, give it till end of OPctober for a beta to get rteleased.. and remember all these extra are free, I geuss I just do not get the reasonning for the "big deal" this is a great engine, and many many user scens will be created !!!! among the "hjot topic" lists are a market garden varient, my own flavor of the Rommel attacks scenario, Husky and Anzio, although it looks as if these may be an add on from the end game advrt splash, Kursk is in Beta.. thanks manny, I expect wolf alsoi to " Go BIN" On the distant horizon expecting to see a multiday, BIN turns are one day, france '40 and '44, using divs and corps. KArkov, Stalengrad... so why complain about the fact that SSG spent there time on play balence rather than more neat stuff? it already has lots, with more to come... I do realize you are expressing a valid desire to see the longer "campiegn, but please be patient and you will be rewarded [:D]

jungelsj_slith -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 11:34:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy The gaming r5 community has made over a dozen add ons for the predisecor to BIN, available free of charge. I expect the "full" battle is high on the list of user made scens, along with many more.... fyi Matrix is the publisher, SSG is the designer and the game came from these folks / as well as Bin user made you will see a lot of the Korson scenarios, including the user ones "ported" to Go BIN.. hope that helps... Somehow I think you missed his point :)

freeboy -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/21/2004 11:42:55 PM)
his point is he is dissappointed no full campeign, my responses are simply wait, it will come shortly I am not speakingfor SSG but they could have released this sooner, but thankfully spent the summer adjusting the ia and play balance.. time not spent doing this larger scenario, Wouldn't you rather have a game like this that is so awesome, really? than a lesser great game with this one scenario that will be made by the user community anyway? Some of the best pre BIN scens are argueably those made by the R5 community, these folks, thanks Rob and all, kept the origonal game alive tao and helpsed us enjoy the Ardennes for years for free!!!

jungelsj_slith -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 12:07:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy his point is he is dissappointed no full campeign, my responses are simply wait, it will come shortly I am not speakingfor SSG but they could have released this sooner, but thankfully spent the summer adjusting the ia and play balance.. time not spent doing this larger scenario, Wouldn't you rather have a game like this that is so awesome, really? than a lesser great game with this one scenario that will be made by the user community anyway? Some of the best pre BIN scens are argueably those made by the R5 community, these folks, thanks Rob and all, kept the origonal game alive tao and helpsed us enjoy the Ardennes for years for free!!! I think part of his dissapointment is that SSG/Matrix is perceived to have expected the community to "finish" their game for them.

freeboy -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 12:11:16 AM)
ok, I see the confusion, we cannot "finish" Bin "user adds" until it gets released.. I do not think the comments, forgot who mentioned these where an attempt to "cop out" by either SSG or MG, just an honest response to the desire... like my response... no harm no foul???

jungelsj_slith -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 12:27:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy ok, I see the confusion, we cannot "finish" Bin "user adds" until it gets released.. I do not think the comments, forgot who mentioned these where an attempt to "cop out" by either SSG or MG, just an honest response to the desire... like my response... no harm no foul??? Yeah I think I know what you mean. Personally I don't think the product is completely worth the $60 until a bunch of user addons come out and give more variety to the game. For example, I really enjoy scenarios where both sides have adequate forces and a large amount of motorized/armored (mobile) forces to conduct attacks. Very few scenarios have this type of layout, so I don't enjoy many of the scenarios that came with BiN/Korsun. I especially like playing as the german forces, so I was really bummed to see that all of the scenarios in BiN (except TAO, which I've played a million times!) consist of German forces woefully understrength and on the run. Basically its a battle again time, not really a battle against two war machines. It seemed to be the same way with Korsun. Anyway, I'm babbling.

freeboy -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 12:34:14 AM)
the new TAO4 is great, much weaker allied forces in the beggining, lots of two step armor, ok we both are babbling [:-]

PresbyterJohn -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 1:22:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Black Cat Yes , I do love myself since that`s who printed it, BTW the manual and tutorial come to 116 color pages. I have a vision of you failing 3rd. grade math. Says the guy is is getting all the other stuff printed along with the manual for an extra $40. Somebody saw you coming and said "pigeon".

DBeves -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 1:30:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck quote: ORIGINAL: DBeves Yes well - I certainly hope they don't make it like ATD - although that one was worth it - if they charge me another 14 quid for a scenario that should have been in the original game that really would be taking the P***. Why should the ATD addon been part of Korsun Pocket? KP is about the battle of the Cherkassy couldron 1944. Not the german advance towards Moscow in 1941. Marc ... If you read what I said correctly I never suggested that ATD should have been part of KP. I even said that it was worth the money I paid for it. My point about an addon that should have been part of the original game was reffering to the previous comment about a full normandy scenario being provided as one ... that is something I would not, nor should be expected to pay extra for. And sorry guys ... I am remain completely unconvinced ... I in no way see a full normandy scenario being anything like unplayable using an engine as good as this one.. In response to the ... "would I rather have waited for the game with a full normandy scenario" ... er well yes ... then it would have been a finished game - I am not one of these gamers who boos like a baby cause I have to wait 5 mins extra for something...and besides ... if SSG had made an announcement that they would release a full scenario at a later date I would have been happier - but as far as I know they haven't. And yes I get the Run5 thing...no need to keep repeating it ... but fact remains ... even though it will probably be excellent ... I didn't pay those guys anything to do it and can therefore not expect or rely on it ever getting done. Please understand that I think the game is excellent but it simply beggars belief that a full scenario was not part of the package ... I am holding off playing WITP till the patch 1.3 comes out cause the list of bugs it fixes appears to me to be quite serious ... now I have to wait till one of the users creates a scenario for another full price game... ? Wargaming time is a limited and precious thing ... therefore Its a bits disappointing to play a game only half way through a campaign and then stop ... feeling I missed out on the full experience of a battle. It has given me the notion I might dust off my copy of HPS Normandy 44 and play the full campaign in that but thats 750 turns long and has over 2000 units in it ... plus all those victory conditions its apparently impossible to work out. And thats the annoying thing - a full campaign scenario in normandy was eminently do-able in this system and there isn't another game out there to do that...

scout1 -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 2:39:49 AM)
Now, I'm curious when I hear that a 70 turn game is too big .... If I'm not mistaken, WitP is ~ a 1000 turn game. Granted it is from different designers but when I hear that the "community" will add a full campaign level version, I'm curious as too why the designer idn't ????

Gregor_SSG -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 2:43:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DBeves Ok... It is a great game.... Great Map... Great System.... BUT....And this really baffles me.... Why is there no full Landing to Falaise scenario included. I dont object to the price so much but considering the amount of flak Matrix have received over it this Full scenario SHOULD have been in there...I even saw a post or something official from matrix saying that they "expected" that a user somewhere out there would create one (quite a bizarre statement in my view)...I'm sorry guys but this scenario SHOULD have been a given for the price you charged for this.... Sorry ... but I feel I'm playing half a game with the scenarios included. Is there somelimitaion on the game system that prevented this ? Just for the record, Matrix have no input into the scenario selection process, so your complaint is strictly with us. The reason for the decision is simple. We saw limited value in a monster campaign scenario. It would take a huge amount of time to test and balance and our judgement is that most players would not want to play a scenario of that length. We could be wrong about that, but that's our judgement. Another issue is that it's virtually impossible to keep the AI on track over 70 or so turns. Since we designed the system, you probably should take our word on that. We think that the BIN AI is our best land-based AI system yet, and a significant improvement on that in KP. Posts on various forums from users would appear to confirm this assessment. However, the difficulties in providing strategic direction to an AI for 70 turns over a map the size of the BIN map are immense. We see no value in providing a 70 turn scenario where a competent Allied player could kill every German unit by turn 50, so we didn't. Other people are welcome to try their hand with the AI system and make a monster scenario. I suspect that the scenario that will prove to be the most useful is a PBEM scenario without any AI at all. We made a judgement that we shouldn't be providing official scenarios without AI. Again that's just our judgement of what's the right thing to do. We were very careful to specify what scenarios we were providing, and I'm confident that we provided everything we promised. Gregor

scout1 -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 2:50:37 AM)
Don't get me wrong. SSG apparently DID make a decision on their approach and one that include the user community to "fill the gap". I'm just cuious as too why a 70 turn AI is considered big in this case. Not to say it isn't, but WitP strikes me as VERY complex in its own right. Don't mean to compare, but just curious. BTW, what is the time players are spending per turn on BiN ????

Adam Parker -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 6:49:11 AM)
Quick .02. The best board game on the campaign "Breakout Normandy" spans just 1 week. BiN offers plenty more as is. Think of the campaign in phases guys. (Yet to get the game Gregor due to some personal issues I've got on my plate but hope to contibute something to the community soon when and if I can bring it to my PC).

DBeves -> RE: Great game but very disapointed with matrix (9/22/2004 11:54:57 AM)
Thanks for the official answer Gregor. For what its worth I think you are wrong about players not wanting a 70 turn campaign game - and thus the extra time taken to provide one would have been worth it in my view. I simply fail to see where a 70 turn game is suddenly thought of as a "Monster" - I cannot think of a commercially produced wargame that doesn't have scenarios of this length and considerably more - and people are playing them. I never suggested that you misled people over what would be in the game and you have certainly provided what you said you would - and what is there is excellent. As far as the AI argument goes - well I just don't see it myself - As good (relatively) as the BIN AI undoubtedly is no AI will ever provide the kind of challenge a human player will. In fact - I never really play the AI - most people at some stage will give up when they see it do something stupid and it is impossible to suspend disbelief anymore that they are getting anything like a challenge. As I presume you are not claiming some kind of quantum leap in AI programming has been made by a small wargame company this is still undoubtedly the case with the BIN AI. (Some times I wonder why companies bother programming an AI at all quite frankly they are usually so limited in the actual challenge they provide.... especially for a subject as complex as War) As far as putting that forward as an argument for NOT providing something that would still have been used by a great many players even if you had left out the AI completely - well... doesnt really stand up for me. You should understand that this is just my personal bug bear ... I have a real problem firing up a game and spending a great deal of time playing it when I know that for me ... the game will end with the campaign half resolved. I just don't see the problem with providing the historical full scenario ... AI or no AI ... and leaving players to make up their mind what they want to do with it...least it would have been there for those that want to ... Anyhow ... now we have the official answer ... subject closed I guess.

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