Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (Full Version)

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selfrulework -> Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (9/26/2004 4:02:06 AM)

I am confused by the maneuver attribute values for aircraft. In the editor manual maneuver is described as “the maneuverability of the aircraft in air to air combat.” Sounds simple enough yet a study of the values by aircraft type reveals that large heavy airplanes like the Corsair F4U-1D (38) and P-47 D Thunderbolt (37) are listed as more maneuverable than the much lighter A6M2 Zero (35) and the Ki-43 Ib Oscar (35). My research indicates that the A6M2 and Ki-43 could fly circles around these heavier American aircraft.

Are the attribute values for the various aircraft optimized to produce “real world” results? Is a maneuverability of 38 for the Corsair and 35 for the A6M2, along with the other attributes values, appropriate to simulate what actually occurred during the war?

Does anyone modify these values with the editor to get different results?



rhohltjr -> RE: Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (10/8/2004 12:06:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfrulework

Sounds simple enough yet a study of the values by aircraft type reveals that large heavy airplanes like the Corsair F4U-1D (38) and P-47 D Thunderbolt (37) are listed as more maneuverable than the much lighter A6M2 Zero (35) and the Ki-43 Ib Oscar (35). My research indicates that the A6M2 and Ki-43 could fly circles around these heavier American aircraft.



Your research would be correct if the pilots in those late war aircraft slowed down to dog fight
the early Japanese planes. Notice that speed also goes into the maneuverability. Late war allied aircraft were generally much faster than the Japanese models and the pilots by then had learned to boom and zoom. Make an attack run and get away if you didn't blow your foe to bits.[:)]



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (10/8/2004 10:32:20 PM)

I've posted this elsewhere, but it seems relevant:

An eveluation of the A6M2 Zeke vs various US aircraft, dated December 1942:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/diego.pdf

(Note that the P51 they used must have been the Allison engined original)

Steve.



Bombur -> RE: Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (10/10/2004 1:36:10 AM)

quote:



Your research would be correct if the pilots in those late war aircraft slowed down to dog fight
the early Japanese planes. Notice that speed also goes into the maneuverability. Late war allied aircraft were generally much faster than the Japanese models and the pilots by then had learned to boom and zoom. Make an attack run and get away if you didn't blow your foe to bits.[:)]


But there is a separate value for speed. The speed itself isn´t used to calculate combat? And if speed is included in maneuverability value (as you argue and I think you are probably right), the D4Y should be more maneuverable than the Val, as it was 160km/h faster than the D3A1 and 130km/h faster than D3A2 (It seems the Val in this game is the D3A1)



Hipper -> RE: Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (10/10/2004 9:51:52 AM)

I strongly suspect that the maneuveability numbers have been tweaked to give combat results with the model that "feel" about right rather than following some equasion combing turn rates and roll rates etc.

cheers



Bombur -> RE: Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (10/10/2004 8:41:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hipper

I strongly suspect that the maneuveability numbers have been tweaked to give combat results with the model that "feel" about right rather than following some equasion combing turn rates and roll rates etc.

cheers


-I have the same impression, but my question is: does speed counts in combat calculation too? In that case, the tweaking would have been unecessary, otherwise, we would need even more tweaking (to D4Y´s and B7N´s, for instance)



doktorblood -> RE: Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (10/14/2004 9:49:01 PM)

My understanding is that both the manuever rating and speed of opposing aircraft are involved in the air combat calculations. In the case of a faster airplane vs a more manueverable airplane, pilot experience determines which advantage is exploited to get the bounce on their opposition.

I agree that the manuever ratings of some planes don't seem right to me. Take the Ki-43 Oscar for instance ... everything I've read claims that it was one of the most manueverable aircraft produced by any nation during the war...but it's data-base rating doesn't seem to reflect that judgement.



Sharkosaurus rex -> RE: Are the maneuver attribute values correct? (10/28/2004 5:20:28 AM)

If the dogfights were fought out on a flat surface then the Oscar and Zero would have some of the highest manoeuvre ratings in the game.

But in the 3D world of aerial combat the Japanese fighters were regularly out-fought by Allied planes with lower horizontal manoeuvring stats. The under-engined Jap planes were designed to operate at low speed with great turning. The Allied planes could use their higher energy to get into a favourable position and attack from above. Another major problem for the Japanese was their light construction. The Jap fighters could not follow Allied planes into steep dives for fear of their wings ripping off and a heaviness of the controls at higher speed made it difficult for the early Jap fighters to compete with Allied planes.



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