BIN Patch Status ? (Full Version)

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Black Cat -> BIN Patch Status ? (9/29/2004 4:47:56 PM)

The AI non timed step replacement issue seems to be a show stopper. I just had a german Para unit defending a critical Hex replace 2 steps in one turn. [:(]



TheHellPatrol -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/29/2004 7:19:00 PM)

[:(]I find myself, again(Witp), waiting on a patch before being able to either get a game to work, or work as designed[8|]. At least we won't have to listen to that music over and over anymore[;)]. I'm shelving it until things are fixed...there is no strategy playing against a cheating opponent[:-].



Capitaine -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/29/2004 7:48:26 PM)

I'm in the same boat as you all. I can't bear to play thinking a hard-earned casualty step will just fall back into place 6 turns early. [:(]

Waiting for patch to play further...



Gregor_SSG -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/30/2004 3:19:09 AM)

Guys,

We're still looking at this issue, but I can tell you that if you set the AI to Computer Minus, this won't happen. The main effect of Computer Minus is to turn off AI scripting, which we don't use in BIN anyway (it was used on opening turns of big Korsun Pocket scenarios).

So go ahead and play on Computer Minus, and the issue should be solved.

Gregor



Pustov -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/30/2004 2:53:09 PM)

Thanks Gregor... for letting use know that SSG will look in to it ....I never saw this... but then again I was always playing as the Germans in my games.... I Hope a patch will come out soon.



holr -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/30/2004 3:07:56 PM)

Guys -

Why don't you avoid this problem by simply playing against humans - instead of the AI.



Capitaine -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/30/2004 3:24:23 PM)

Umm... because the game was marketed with a great AI and sometimes we like to play the computer? Enough?



TheHellPatrol -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/30/2004 8:11:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Umm... because the game was marketed with a great AI and sometimes we like to play the computer? Enough?
No Duh! Besides...i'm anti-social...please leave me alone[;)][:D]



Pustov -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (9/30/2004 8:48:01 PM)

Sometimes I like to socialize..... with the anti-social..

It can be a good conversation....[:D]



ravinhood -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/1/2004 8:24:10 PM)

Yeah, why even have an AI? That's why I buy computer games, keyword "computer", to play against the AI. It was the whole reason for getting into computer gaming in the first place back in the the early 80's. Takes too long to play against a human, they got all those social things they have to do, they have to quit at the most inoportune times and PBEM is as slow as a snails crawl.

That's why I've always pushed for greater and more enhanced AI over pretty graphics. If you wanna play against a human, fine, sobeit, but, it's not for everyone. I'm anti-social also. ;)



PresbyterJohn -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 2:19:51 AM)

How about a computer game where the computer just takes away the need to clear off the dining room table to play a game? Some of the first computer games I played were player Vs player battle games where two PCs were connected by serial cable or modem. Now it's mainly PBEM games but some real wargames are still able to be played in real time via an internet connection.

Anyway dump the AI. It can never be as good as even a mediocre player, and just adds to the cost of the games. Just produce the battleset of scenarios, rules, maps and pieces that allow two people to play a wargame on a computer screen with real fog of war and no arguements about rules.



freeboy -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 2:35:07 AM)

Ian Trout, from SSG just recently posted at the R5 forum that it would be at least one month for the patch, so call it two months, is End of November my guess...
Hello Ravinhood, did you buy BIN, it is awesome.. how abot Rome TW?
Good to see you again.. so to speak



TheHellPatrol -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 3:32:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Ian Trout, from SSG just recently posted at the R5 forum that it would be at least one month for the patch, so call it two months, is End of November my guess...
Hello Ravinhood, did you buy BIN, it is awesome.. how abot Rome TW?
Good to see you again.. so to speak
[X(][8|]Time to turn the music off[;)]



RobertRasmussen -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 12:37:15 PM)

To me it's obvious that the AI should have to adhere to the same rules as the human player and all options favoring the AI (or the player) should be crystal clear and spelled out in the rules or the help files. I noticed the timed replacement problem as well and another thing I just noticed: I have surrounded a regiment of the 17SS in one hex and a regiment of 12SS in a different hex. They are totally surrounded on all 6 adjacent hexes and I've attacked them both at relatively low odds three/two times. The idea was of course to drain their supply. But they still both have all their three bullets? Am I misunderstanding something or weren't they suppose to use one bullet per turn to defend themselves? And has anyone else encountered this problem?

Robert



Adam Parker -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 12:55:33 PM)

2-3 times in the same turn?

If so a defender only spends a bullet once irregardless of the number of times attacked.



DonStone -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 1:36:27 PM)

re: still show 2-3 bullets

I assume you mean they show that when right-clicking the hex? Right-clicking shows you the basic unmodified stats of the unit. You only see the current stats by selecting the hex and looking in the unit box -- which you can't do for enemy units.

(test this with your own units -- the "right-click" will show all bullets -- the unit box will show some grayed out)



RobertRasmussen -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 3:26:49 PM)

Oh, of course. Hidden units mean hidden supply status as well....what was I thinking.

Thanks for the reply anyway [:)]

Have a great weekend.

Robert



Black Cat -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 3:42:14 PM)

I don`t want to jump on this thread, and it`s probably my on-going misunderstanding of the system but...

I attacked an 2 step not dug in Ost unit West of Carteren ( sp ? ) It was in a_ Forrest Hex_ with a 9 Allied penalty [X(]

I attacked on 3 sides with 3 Regiments of the 101st. Airborne and one side with a Regiment of the 4th. Div. all in supply and at full strength and all Arty and Naval Gundfire available and a leader. The odds showing were 10+ ( couldn`t get better right? ) and I of course rolled a 1. Not to be Bitchey BTW, but in 12 game starts I seem to roll a lot of 1-2`s around Carterin in key 10+ attacks.

But that aside, really, shouldn`t that Ost unit have lost at least 1 step no matter what I rolled...???



JSS -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 3:53:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

...But that aside, really, shouldn`t that Ost unit have lost at least 1 step no matter what I rolled...???


Throw a +2 shock tank, engineer, or Ranger unit into the attack and you'll likely go to the "7" or "8" lines of the CRT... that normally ensures getting at least a D1 in all results.

This same tactic is important when playing TAO4. Mech recon squadron defending Loshiem has 1/3 chance of repulsing a 10-1 attack unless you use one of the heavy panzer units (+4 tank shock).



Black Cat -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 4:15:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JSS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

...But that aside, really, shouldn`t that Ost unit have lost at least 1 step no matter what I rolled...???


Throw a +2 shock tank, engineer, or Ranger unit into the attack and you'll likely go to the "7" or "8" lines of the CRT... that normally ensures getting at least a D1 in all results.

This same tactic is important when playing TAO4. Mech recon squadron defending Loshiem has 1/3 chance of repulsing a 10-1 attack unless you use one of the heavy panzer units (+4 tank shock).



Thanks JSS, unfortunatlely the Tank battalions that arrived on Utah can`t get through to that Terrain and the Rangers are all up at Omaha Beach area and the Eng. units are elsewhere.

I guess what I`m saying here, with all due respect to you and SSG, is that I disagree with the way the CRT is set up here and that, along with the Huge negative modifiers the Allies have in some, in fact most, Terrain IMO seem to preclude achiveing historical results and a historical time line for the allies. At least in my playing the Allies. I`m sure others do better[;)]

BTW; I agree with and understand your TAO example and that seems both Game play and historically accurate, the ideal resolution in a War Game.



Capitaine -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 4:28:30 PM)

Dunno 'bout that Mech Recon in Losheim. I've been playing a lot of TAO4 lately and I, too, am doubtful of one step of "mech recon" holding out at +10-1. 10-1 is, well, 10-1 and given the defender shifts to start with, one would think 3-1 would be pretty good odds really, when actually 3-1 stinks in this game. The "*" results at high odds cause me to raise an eyebrow 'cuz I don't see that much metal flying around and no one dying (in a material way). BTW, I've never come up empty there so I've no axe to grind.

If ordered to "press home the attack", I'm sure at 10-1 the attackers could do it. (Of course, further complicating things is that TAO is 1/2 day of battle while BiN is a full day; one of the continuing issues of scale in the saga... [:-] )



RobertRasmussen -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 6:16:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

I don`t want to jump on this thread, and it`s probably my on-going misunderstanding of the system but...

I attacked an 2 step not dug in Ost unit West of Carteren ( sp ? ) It was in a_ Forrest Hex_ with a 9 Allied penalty [X(]

I attacked on 3 sides with 3 Regiments of the 101st. Airborne and one side with a Regiment of the 4th. Div. all in supply and at full strength and all Arty and Naval Gundfire available and a leader. The odds showing were 10+ ( couldn`t get better right? ) and I of course rolled a 1. Not to be Bitchey BTW, but in 12 game starts I seem to roll a lot of 1-2`s around Carterin in key 10+ attacks.

But that aside, really, shouldn`t that Ost unit have lost at least 1 step no matter what I rolled...???


I've noticed the same thing: In key attacks on city hexes in Carentan or Caen it seems very easy to roll a 1 or 2 at 10:1 [:)] And sometimes it seems that the AI rolls an unreasonable amount of 5's and 6's. But on the other hand: It must be just perception. I can't imagine that the AI has been programmed to fiddle with the die rolls.



JSS -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 6:29:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertRasmussen

...And sometimes it seems that the AI rolls an unreasonable amount of 5's and 6's.


Remember, if you set AI to + or ++ that adds 1(+) or 2 (++) to each dice in every attack the AI makes... at ++ setting 50% of AI's dice should be "6"[X(]



TheHellPatrol -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/2/2004 10:00:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JSS

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertRasmussen

...And sometimes it seems that the AI rolls an unreasonable amount of 5's and 6's.


Remember, if you set AI to + or ++ that adds 1(+) or 2 (++) to each dice in every attack the AI makes... at ++ setting 50% of AI's dice should be "6"[X(]
???With the "replacement bug" unless we have the ai set to computer- we can't expect realistic results so how can we make sense of any of this? I have played as the Allies vs. computer- and have noticed the same as mentioned above[&:]. Is the ai of BiN really that much better as touted? Or simply completely changed as to "appear" better?[;)] Things don't add up the same as KP/ATD, and after a few games against a "God Mode" ai you start to question reality. I think BiN is a major step forward and a great improvement, but at this stage it's hard to tell what is a "new feature" and what is a "feature in progress"



Gregor_SSG -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/3/2004 9:23:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertRasmussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

I don`t want to jump on this thread, and it`s probably my on-going misunderstanding of the system but...

I attacked an 2 step not dug in Ost unit West of Carteren ( sp ? ) It was in a_ Forrest Hex_ with a 9 Allied penalty [X(]

I attacked on 3 sides with 3 Regiments of the 101st. Airborne and one side with a Regiment of the 4th. Div. all in supply and at full strength and all Arty and Naval Gundfire available and a leader. The odds showing were 10+ ( couldn`t get better right? ) and I of course rolled a 1. Not to be Bitchey BTW, but in 12 game starts I seem to roll a lot of 1-2`s around Carterin in key 10+ attacks.

But that aside, really, shouldn`t that Ost unit have lost at least 1 step no matter what I rolled...???


I've noticed the same thing: In key attacks on city hexes in Carentan or Caen it seems very easy to roll a 1 or 2 at 10:1 [:)] And sometimes it seems that the AI rolls an unreasonable amount of 5's and 6's. But on the other hand: It must be just perception. I can't imagine that the AI has been programmed to fiddle with the die rolls.


You are right, the AI has not been programmed to fiddle with the dice rolls, except where explicitly stated on the Computer + and Computer ++ settings.

We get this every time we do a game. The human memory is very, very fallible. We forget all those sixes we rolled, where we got an exceptionally good result, but grimly remember all the ones we rolled, where we got an exceptionally bad result.

Remember also, that in a big BIN scenario, you're rolling large numbers of dice. The more dice you roll, the more chance you have of encountering unusual results.

Lastly, the AI hasn't got a hope of telling that one particular combat is far more critical than another, and in fact never tries to make this evaluation. If it was smart enough to do so, then we'd all be in trouble.

Gregor



ravinhood -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/4/2004 1:00:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Ian Trout, from SSG just recently posted at the R5 forum that it would be at least one month for the patch, so call it two months, is End of November my guess...
Hello Ravinhood, did you buy BIN, it is awesome.. how abot Rome TW?
Good to see you again.. so to speak


LOL Hi Freeboy, and no I didn't buy either, RTW is a TOTAL letdown and well BIN is direct download only (have dialup) and I'm not paying $50 +$10 for a cd without a "MANUAL", the box I could care less about, but, if I'm going to pay $60 for a game I sure expect a MANUAL I can lie in bed with and read myself to sleep before I play the game again. I don't own a printer (my ex-girlfriend took all my printers, the beach lol, heh, but, I stole all her RAM!! lol), so, I have no way to print out the pdf or whatever txt file it uses either.

I'm still playing SPARTAN, and tweaking that ole ai file of mine. It's still one of the most challenging games I have and I have some Combat Mission PBEM games going. Gawd I hope Battlefront doesn't follow the path of Creative Assembly and come out with some stupid kiddie click fest rts version of the Combat Mission series in their next renditions.

I'm still disappointed in Matrix for not finding some way to release boxed versions or even sandwich bag versions of their game with a "MANUAL", somehow, someway. EBgames, Best Buy, Software etc., Walmart or Hastings even. Just takes too much of my time for a "download" and then no manual to go along with that. Looks like my Matrix games buying days are limited to ebay and amazon.com as some people grow bored of them and toss them up for sale there. I'm an old dog you can't teach new tricks to, especially when it taxes MY energies moreso than the companies. I'll just keep chewing on my ole favorite chew toys and save my teeth and energy for those toys that other companies put in my FACE to bite on (retail sales). ;)

What about that NWS site Matrix? I buy HPS & Shrapnel games from them, why don't you try to make some kind of arrangement with them to sell some of your games that can be ordered "complete" without having to "download" anything??????



mbMike -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/4/2004 1:22:11 AM)

quote:

RTW is a TOTAL letdown


I hope you didn't buy RTW! It was pretty friggin' obvious what the game would be like. It's a blast, BTW. Worth the 49.99 USD!



ravinhood -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/4/2004 1:31:26 AM)

If you like RTS kiddle clickfest type games, yeah I guess it is, the NEW fanbase over at the official site love it, but, 90% of the vets loathe it. So it's just a change of the forum members, we'll give our money to someone else and CA can go take a flying leap off the gruder building. ;)



Erik Rutins -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/4/2004 6:10:20 PM)

Ravinhood,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I'm still disappointed in Matrix for not finding some way to release boxed versions or even sandwich bag versions of their game with a "MANUAL", somehow, someway. EBgames, Best Buy, Software etc., Walmart or Hastings even. Just takes too much of my time for a "download" and then no manual to go along with that. Looks like my Matrix games buying days are limited to ebay and amazon.com as some people grow bored of them and toss them up for sale there. I'm an old dog you can't teach new tricks to, especially when it taxes MY energies moreso than the companies. I'll just keep chewing on my ole favorite chew toys and save my teeth and energy for those toys that other companies put in my FACE to bite on (retail sales). ;) What about that NWS site Matrix? I buy HPS & Shrapnel games from them, why don't you try to make some kind of arrangement with them to sell some of your games that can be ordered "complete" without having to "download" anything??????


Please note that you can buy our games without downloading anything. Just order the version currently labeled "PC-CDROM" and you will be shipped a printed DVD Case and CD, no need to download anything. I've ordered from the NWS site and received just a CD in a sleeve for one of their titles, so I don't see that they have a better system. I think we're both moving in the same direction. The "Game on Demand" is something that just launched, so you may not have been aware of this possibility - we spent a good part of the summer planning and implementing it along with Digital River.

Please note that all of our games are now available in a printed DVD Box version, with or without a download. We have also added trackable UPS shipping because of the many problems customers were experieincing with USPS packages not arriving in a timely fashion or being completely lost along the way.

Regarding the manuals, we are working on a number of options, but I doubt we'll be able to include them in a DVD box. We are however, always trying to find better, less expensive ways for our customers to print out the PDF manuals.

Regards,

- Erik



ravinhood -> RE: BIN Patch Status ? (10/4/2004 9:36:05 PM)

Ahhh breathes a sigh of relief, now that's more like it. But, I want that manual. ;) As you see I have no printer. But, as it were direct download was totally out of the question for me and I'm sure several others if not many. I'll look into your store again and see what it looks like now. When WitP came out, I haven't looked at your store since. I mean you give a nice pretty BOX picture of your games, but, then if you only ship a CD/DVD case, that's fine, but, heck, if you can ship a cd case in a sandwich bag with a paper manual I'd be happy. I don't need no fancy graphics on the manual, can be plain white paper. But, I want something to hold in my hands on the cold winter nights! LOL



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