12.10 Turkish Options

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peskpesk -> 12.10 Turkish Options (10/5/2004 5:00:06 PM)
12.10 Turkish Options Theses are the rules for to make Turkey a better rapresentative Power in Africa. Between breacks you'll find the penality (in Victory points) to be paid by Turkey if the particular option is chosen 12.10.1 Grand Vizier: The Grand Vizier is simply the Sultan's chief advisor and commander-in-chief of the army. As such, he is technically "immortal." To simulate this, if the Grand Vizier is the victim of a leader casualty, a die roll of 6 does not eliminate the counter. Instead, treat it as a six month wound (the time taken to find a replacement). The Sultan will simply appoint a new Grand Vizier at that time. 12.10.2 Sultan's Guard: (-1vp for TU): Each Janissary Corps can hold one factor of guard infantry IN PLACE OF one regular infantry factor. The corps capacity thus becomes 1g/14i. Turkey does not begin any scenario or campaign game with a guard factor. They must be built during the course of the game. Turkish guard cannot be used per rule 12.3.4 (guard commitment). The Nizami-Cedid can never hold any guard factors. 12.10.3 Increased Cavalry Capacity: (-2vp for TU): Based purely on numbers, the Turkish regular cavalry is under-represented in the game. If using this option, each Janissary Corps can hold 2c in addition to any infantry. If used along with rule 12.10.2, each Janissary corps has a capacity of 1g/14i/2c in 1805 and 1g/11i/2c in 1792. The capacity of the Nizami-Cedid is increased to 12i/4c in 1805 and 8i/3c in 1792. 12.10.4 Serbian Revolt: Russia can attempt to instigate the Serbian Revolt. The procedure varies depending on whether or not Turkey and Russia are at war (the Serbian Revolt can ONLY be instigated as long as Serbia is an unceded home province of Turkey). If Turkey and Russia are at war, Russia can pay $2 in its Guerilla Step in the Land Phase. The Russian player can then deploy 5Gr factors anywhere within Serbia. Serbian guerillas function as Spanish guerillas but they are controlled by the Russian player and they may never leave Serbia. Use the Spanish guerilla counters provided with the game. Their use outside of Spain will indicate that they are Serbian. Serbia is understood to have a guerilla value of four. Unlike Spain, however, Russia must maintain the revolt by paying $1 per every full 5Gr factors during the Money and Manpower Expenditure Step. If Russia fails to maintain the Revolt, Turkey adds +1 to any anti-guerilla operations until the next Economic Phase. If Russia is at peace with Turkey (and not under an enforced peace with Turkey), the Russian player can instigate the Serbian Revolt by losing 2PP during the Minor Country Control Step of a Political Phase and deploying 5Gr factors. Russia must still maintain the revolt as detailed above. Field Combat within the Serbian province will NOT produce Gr factors. However, if any Turkish corps forages for supply in Serbia (except besieged garrisons), one Gr factor is created and placed by the Russian player. This occurs only if a Serbian Revolt is in progress. 12.10.5 The Persian War: The Turkish player can attempt to instigate a war between Russia and Persia. If the two powers are at peace, Turkey must subtract one (1) PP during the DoW phase and roll two dice. A roll of nine or more causes the Persian war to break out (TU may modify this dice roll by spending more PP-- each extra PP spent lowers the target number by one by a maximum of 5. Thus, if Turkey were to lose 3 PP the target number would 7 instead of 9). The roll is modified by +1 for each Russian corps or garrison with 5 or more factors (both corps and garrison) to a maximum of +3. If Turkey and Russia are at war, Persia is automatically activated in any DoW step if the Turkish player is willing to spend $5 and 2PP. Turkey cannot start the war if allied with Russia OR during an enforced peace. During the following Army Reinforcement Step Phase, Russia must dispatch troops to fight the Persians. 10i, 2c and a corps must be removed from anywhere in the Russian home nation (these forces must come from the map-- including the corps). These forces remain off-map until the war is ended. Russia does not collect the tax or manpower value from Georgia while at war with Persia, and it must support its Persian campaign by spending $2 in each Money and Manpower Expenditure Step (this does not include the corps maintenance which must also be paid). Peace between Russia and Persia can occur in several ways. If Turkey fails to maintain the war by paying $1 each Money and Manpower Expenditure Step, peace breaks out in the following Peace Step. If Turkey and Russia are at war and make a formal peace, the Persian war immediately ends. Otherwise, the Russian player must roll two dice each during each Peace Step in order to end the war. During the first Peace Step, Russia needs to roll two sixes (6,6 OR 12) to end the war. Each Peace Step thereafter, the target number falls by one to a minimum of 7 (i.e., on the second Peace Step, Russia needs an 11 or 12, on the third a 10, 11, or 12). When the war ends, Russia can again collect taxes and manpower from Georgia (provided the capital is not occupied by Turkey or some other major power) and the corps, 5i and 1c are available in the next Reinforcement Phase (the balance of 5i and 1c are lost in the war). The historical war lasted from 1807 until 1813. There can be only one Persian War in the course of the game. Optional rules 12.10.4 and 12.10.5 can only be used in an 1805 campaign game. 12.10.6 Nizami-Cedid: Applies only to scenarios and later campaign games. 12.10.7 Leader Option: Create a leader counter to represent the "Napoleon of Cairo," Muhammed Ali. Ali is available to Turkey during the 1805 scenario if the Turkish player controls Egypt as a minor Free State. He is available in any Army Reinforcement Step following the creation of Egypt as a Free State. he is used in the same manner as the Bernadotte counter. The Muhammed Ali leader counter is rated 3-2-2C. 12.10.8 Sieges: Turkish and Medio-Oriental soldiers were very good at sieges because, historically, they faced lots of sieges and they were constantly facing sieges. To simulate this the morale of feudals, when besieged or besieging is "3.0" 12.10.9 March on the desert: Minor African Corps or National corps that move with Minor African Corps receives a "+1" on the roll for forage if they are in the desert. 12.10.10 The Muslim revolution: To take in consideration the fact that Muslims are usually united against other enemies, when other Powers DOW on Turkey a roll is made for each neutral African Minor. If the result is 1 that particular minor became a free minor, controlled by Turkey and their armies start with as much factors as written on the 1805 Minor Country Chart. If the DOWing Nation has conquered African Minors, a roll of 1,2 or 3 means a revolt (the Minor became a free Minor controlled by Turkey, that can place its army. Its army starts with as much factors as written on the 1805 Minor Country Chart.), while if the DOWing Nation has free African Minors, a roll of 1 or 2 means that the African Minor corp and garrison loses half as much of their factors (fraction rounded down). If Turkey controls Ottoman Empire a "+1" is added on the roll. If the DOWing Nation controls Ottoman Empire a "-1" is added to the roll. The African revolt army can't leave the Minor borders and doesn't need supply or forage while there is no Turkish corp inside the Minor nation. The Minor revolt army remains active until a peace is made. After the peace is made the Minor army is removed from the map.(-2 VP) May we see some as future Options for Turkey in CEiA Marshall? [:D]

peskpesk -> The Nizami Cedid Revolution (10/5/2004 5:00:37 PM)
12.11 The Nizami Cedid Revolution 12.11.1 Turkey may declare the Nizam-i-Cedid revolution if it fulfills all the requirements in any December New political Combinations Step of the Grand 1805 Campaign Game. Requirements: Turkey must be dominant Turkey must control all home nation provinces, Military Border, Transylvania, Podolia, Crimea, and Georgia as unceded provinces and Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Tripolitania, Cyrenaica, Egypt, Palestine, and Syria as part of the Ottoman Empire. All Turkish regular corps must be at full strength Turkey must not be at war with any major power. Immediate Effects: All feudal corps are stood down and levy to full strength, even if beseiged. All Ottoman army factors and corps are eliminated. All Turkish army factors and corps other than the Nizam-i-Cedid corps are eliminated. Effects during the following year: Turkish money and manpower collection form home nation provimces participating in the revolution (the marked home nations plus the Military Border, Transylvania, Podolia, Crimea, and Georgia) is halved. This includes trade from ports located in those provinces. Ottoman Empire money and manpower collection is not doubled. Ottoman Empire corps are not used during the year. All feudal corps must remain off map throughout the year. The Janissary and Imperial Cavalry corps are not used during the year. 12.11.2 If the revolution is successful, then that is announced in the December New Political Combinations Step, 12 months after the revolution began. The following effects apply: All Ottoman corps are available for construction with maximum values of 12I, 2C. All Turkish Janissary and Feudal infantry corps are available for construction with maximum values of 12I/M, 2C. All infantry factors in the Nizam-i-Cedid corps convert into guard factors. The Nizam-i-Cedid is the Turkish guard corps with maximum values of 12G, 2C. All Turkish imperial and feudal cavalry corps are available for construction with maximum values of 6C. Turkish cavalry morale is increased to 4.0, like other major powers. Ottoman morale is '3.0' for infantry and '4.0' for cavalry. Feudal corps are now ordinary infantry or cavalry corps. If their province is ceded, the corps counter continues to be available. Ottoman corps are treated from now on as having a bracketed movement factor of '3'. Turkish Infantry corps have a movement factor of '4.0'. Turkey may build militia. All Turkish home nation provinces affected by the Nizam-i-Cedid revolution have their money values increased by $1. All provinces that formerly provided a feudal infantry corps to Turkey have their calues increased by $4 and 2MP. The provinces that formerly provided a feudal cavalry corps to Turkey have their values increased by $5 and 2MP. The Turkish "printed values" should be treated as being $117 and 44MP. All minor countries in the Ottoman Empire increase their money value by an amount equal to their manpower. Turkey add two additional fleet counters for a total of four. Egypt adds a fleet counter, which has a '-1' for combat (or morale '2.0') like Austrian/Prussian fleets. Tribute may now be paid every economic phase. Trade from every port in Turkey and the Ottoman Empire is increased by +1/+1. Note that Turkish regular infantry morale will continue to be '4.0' for as long as Turkey continues to be dominant. Equally, the $10 bonus for dominance continues. Modified money and manpower for Turkish provinces and Ottoman Minors: TURKEY $ MP Ottoman Empire $ MP Albania 6 2 Algeria 7 3 Anatolia 19 10 Cyrenaica 3 2 Armenia 2 1 Egypt 12 6 Bessarabia 2 1 Morocco 5 2 Bosnia 6 3 Palestine 4 2 Bulgaria 7 3 Syria 7 4 Crete 2 0 Tripolitania 3 2 Crimea 11 3 Tunisia 6 3 Cyprus 2 0 TOTAL 94 48 Georgia 3 0 Note: doubled as free states Greece 6 2 Macedonia 6 3 Military Border 4 1 Moldavia 3 0 Podolia 11 4 Rumelia 8 3 Serbia 7 3 Transylvania 9 4 Wallachia 3 1 TOTAL 117 44 12.11.3 Failure Once the revolution has been completed, it cannot be reversed. If one of the following situations arise during the revolution, it fails. It may be attempted later if requirements are once again fulfilled. Turkey ceases to be dominant Any provincial capital is occupied, denying Turkey that province's money and/or manpower during an economic phase. Turkey sues any major power for peace. Turkey loses control of any constituent member of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey chooses to end the revolution at any time, dropping 3PP. If the revolution is ended at any time, then all feudal corps are immediately available for placement at full strength in their provinces; the Ottoman, Janissary, and Imperial Cavalry are available for placement with their normal maximum capacities.

mars -> RE: The Nizami Cedid Revolution (10/7/2004 2:42:08 AM)
This is one option that as far as I can see doesn't mirror history in any way at all. The revolution - which was in fact the disbandment of the Janissaries and the feudal system took place after Turkey surrendered to the Russians (around 1813 - not sure of the exact date). The fact that this option says it should happen when they are dominant is absurd. Nobody changes their military system when they are dominant. I like the idea that this can be done, just the preconditions for it don't make any sense. My 2 c. Mario

1LTRambo -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (10/8/2004 12:40:14 AM)
This sounds interesting. However, how would Turkey ever complete this "revolt" when any other Major powers could declare war and attack to ensure that Turkey is unsuccessful?[&:] After all, one year is a very long time and corp could be mobilized and moved into Turkey's territory to easily prevent this.

Windfire -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (10/12/2004 3:22:10 AM)
The Jannisaries were destroyed/disbanded in 1826 when they rebelled. Army was reformed after that. Reform efforts (Army and Navy) were being driven by Sultan Selim III who was deposed in 1807 by a Jannisary/auxillary rebellion over army modernization efforts. His final successor after one short term puppet, continued to work reforms on a smaller scale, while leaving the Jannisaries alone until they rebelled in 1826. If Selim had acted differently and not been deposed, it is possible modernization could have occurred before 1826. Aside - one of the problems with the military reform was that it was not necessarily matched with government/civilian reforms which lead to economic challenges and some of the resulting dissent and unpopularity over some of the reforms. In reference to the rebellion in 1807, sufficient forces were available to easily crush the rebellion, but Selim tried to placate the opposing forces and ended up abdicating and eventually was killed. Would be an interesting random event if these are added from EIH. A good source of information on the Ottoman Empire during this period is "The Crescent Among the Eagles" by William E. Johnson. Many of the options listed above (Grand Vizar, Cavalry, increased defense, etc.) and those from EIH (various rebellions, etc. )would help to capture the capabilities and limitations of the Ottoman Empire (Alot of forces, but continually handicaped by internal strife and rebellions that limited that ability to apply those forces).

Chairman -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (10/14/2004 11:24:37 AM)
quote: The Jannisaries were destroyed/disbanded in 1826 when they rebelled And the artillery corps shot them to pieces. In one game I was gamekeeper, all the surviving Jannisarys starved to death in hungary, 2 new players were playing Austria and Turkey, that fight was an Turkey win. 2 years later the turkish army fought the russian army to a stand still north of Istambul in 4 day long battle. The Tsar sued for a peace and got it... By the way we used Napoleons battle system to resolve the battles.

Barbu -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/11/2004 2:02:22 AM)
In all the campaign games I have played, Turkey always stood out as the weakest country by far, even considering the lower victory points requirements. In fact, in most games I have played except one Turkey ended up completely crushed at one point, and the country was always played by competent players. Turkey's weaknesses: Inability for Turkey to gain political points on it's own: Turkey has poor morale, a very weak economy, relatively small corps and average leaders. Every single country can beat Turkey in a fair fight, and the outcome isn't really a question. Assuming a competent player at the other end, there really isn't much of a viable option Turkey can use except just plain attrition at a high political points cost. Absence of any viable long term strategy at the start of the game : EVERY single other country can form up a viable plan at the start of the game, even Prussia and Spain. If France and Great Britain start the game at war, Spain has a relatively free hand in the Mediterranean and with a few important minors, potential for solid growth and further expansion (usually at the expense of the turks...). Prussia allied with Austria and GB have a realistic chance at victory against France. Short of attacking Austria in combination with France, there is nothing the Turkish player can do, and even then crushing Austria would mean a very strong France and an hostile coalition, not to mention that the russian player may decide to intervene right away. Sea power: There are 4 potential enemies for Turkey: Austria, GB, Spain, Russia. Against the last 3, sea power can be and usually is the decisive element, and against a determined opponent this usually means the loss of most turkish controlled minor states. Lack of operational mobility: The turks have 2 problems there. First is a financial one which limits the overall mobility of their army through regular supply. The second is Turkey's heavy reliance on feudal corps, a consequence of their economic weakness. Feudal factors can't be detached and this is a serious limitation if waging a war of posts and sieges, trying to invade and occupy cities or raiding supply lines. Absence of natural allies: The only country that doesn't want anything from Turkey is France. All the others are either natural enemies or allied to them, or at best uneasy neighbors. France is usually tangled up with Austria and Prussia, and often GB as well and help from them can be fairly limited. If attacked by GB or Spain or Russia, or even Austria, Turkey has very little in the way of potential outside help except in unusual circumstances. Economic weakness: Turkey has the worst economy in the game, rivaled only in mediocrity by a Prussia that was crushed by France - which happened only once to that degree in all the campaign games I've played - or Spain that lost it's fleet (happened only once as well). This isn't made up by feudal levies as some people would think. There are 87 feudal factors available at first, and assuming Turkey lose them all (not gonna happen if things are going well), that would mean 87 factors a year, so roughly an extra 44 manpower by economic phase. A more realistic number is 60 factors a year AT MOST, meaning at best 30 manpower per economic phase - a number that ca be closely matched or exceeded by every other major power. This would also mean Turkey is fighting a major war every year, which would mean lost political points unless circumstances favored the turks. And if Turkey doesn't fight, the feudal potential is stagnating, sort of a catch 22. It wouldn't be a good idea to adress all issues. Turkey IS supposed to be the weakest major power by virtue of the VP requirements. However right now in my opinion even considering that, Turkey's strength still isn't in proportion to it's VP needs. We have used house rules the last 2 campaign games, and though they helped it still wasn't enough in one of them. I have also read a few that were suggested but they were either insignificant changes, or far too complicated to implement - we don't want to the game to be anymore complex than it is. Here's a couple of the modifications that we liked: -Turkish feudal morale raised to 2.5 (3.0 if dominant). This may seem a lot since a lot of people consider feudals to be "free", but in fact they aren't free; Turkey is paying up for them with it's other numerous weaknesses. -Allow turkish feudal corps to detach "militia" as garrison. These militias can be absorbed by other feudal corps. All turkish detached feudal "militia" is to be disbanded during the december levy phase. This would adress some of the operational mobility problems the turks are facing. OR -Allow Turkey to build militia, and turkish regular corps can be made up of a mix of regular infantry and militia, like all other major powers. A lot of the time Turkey can't use all of it's regular manpower and the surplus ends up being wasted. Also, in order to garrison cities Turkey currently has to use up relatively expensive regular infantry, and given their limited resources this is somewhat of a pain. -Rhodes, Palestine, Syria are not minor states but are considered Turkish provinces. This makes sense historically since they stayed that way until 1918 (I think), and it does considerably reduce the incentive for major powers like Spain and GB to prey on Turkey for easy political points and conquests. It also eases the problems of being in the instability zone, something that Turkey is frequently faced with. Let's face it, a minor country like Rhodes, with no income of any kind, no realistic use as a naval base, is only there to provide an agressor with a free political point - if Turkey doesn't lose it first by being in the instability zone. We'll probably use the siege and muslim revolution options from the first post as well. Basically we are looking for easy to implement options (the nizami cedid revolution isn't) that can make a difference, and that can mirror history to a certain extent (can stretch it a bit). Any comment on my assessment of Turkey's situation, or how to play Turkey is more than welcome!

Ozie -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/11/2004 4:11:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Barbu Here's a couple of the modifications that we liked: -Turkish feudal morale raised to 2.5 (3.0 if dominant). This may seem a lot since a lot of people consider feudals to be "free", but in fact they aren't free; Turkey is paying up for them with it's other numerous weaknesses. -Allow turkish feudal corps to detach "militia" as garrison. These militias can be absorbed by other feudal corps. All turkish detached feudal "militia" is to be disbanded during the december levy phase. This would adress some of the operational mobility problems the turks are facing. I like these. For the first one it could be so that atleast feudal cavalry would have the raised 2,5 morale. I think detaching feudal factors as "militia" garrison is a good idea. But I don't think they should have to stand down on levy step. Instead the Turkish player could elect not to raise all its feudal infantry corps. So if Turkey has 1-9 of feudal garrison then he must leave 1 feudal corp off-map. If 10-18 2 feudal corps and so on. So that there are never any more feudal factor ingame than the total allowed number of all the feudal corps combined.

megalomania2003 -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/11/2004 11:56:12 AM)
While Turkey is the weakest power on the battlefield, and your options sound interesting, I diagree that Turkey is a complete loss. Turkeys does have several political advanteges: Naval - For any MP to detach say 30 ships to the Turkish mainland would mean a serious vulnerability of its homeland (GB) or fleet (the rest) as the ships are to far away from a safe harbour/Dover. I regards this as only being a realistic option if a solid alliance between, for instance GB and SP being in place. - and in that case what about Fr (invasion of Sp could be a price for a latter invasion of Au) Economic - I have yet to see a situation where either GB or Fr would not be interested in financing the Turkish army. Alliances - If Tu allies early with Fr early it might create a big Fr but that merely means that the others have to spend more effort against Fr, and would be even more interested in leaving Tyrkey alone/ getting it on their side. Alliances - And if the other MP pursuade Ty not to ally early with Fr they must have offered something. In the games I have played i have played Ty have done quite well, if it is being played by a politcian (but that vulnerability applies to all nations). I like the option suggested regarding militia, but do not believe it is necessary for play balance (should cost Ty Vp�s to implement).

Pippin -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/11/2004 2:24:19 PM)
quote: While Turkey is the weakest power on the battlefield, Have you by any chance, tried telling the Spanish that while both France and Britain were chewing away at him? :P

Barbu -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/11/2004 9:09:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pippin quote: While Turkey is the weakest power on the battlefield, Have you by any chance, tried telling the Spanish that while both France and Britain were chewing away at him? :P We always play with option 11.9.2 to prevent a Fr/GB alliance. There is no incentive in EIA to re-create the historical rivality except for this optional rule. Without it, these 2 are more natural allies than enemies and there's no reason to break this entente unless one is coasting to victory. As long as both are at war, Spain's #1 priority should be that neither ever surrender unconditionally to the other to keep the war going.

Camile Desmoulins -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/14/2004 3:57:02 PM)
There are many options in the web about Turkish, almost all already mentioned here. However, there is an option that had always seemed realistic that favored the playability and that it doesn't cause imbalance in the game, that is the possibility that the corps of the northafrican countries have a moral 2/3 (Inf/Cav) when they defend their own territory. This avoid, for example, that Spain with a couple of corps and certain ability (and of cours a piece of luck) can conquer North of Africa to l Tunisia, when the reality was very different [:(]

JRichert -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/15/2004 5:46:53 PM)
I always thought Tu was a very interesting play. As someone pointed out, you really need to be a politician though. The Turks have a few advantages: 1) They should have cav superiority in all of their battles. 2) They have some decent leaders, but Pechlivan Khan is better than anything the Ruskies or Austrians throw at them, short of Kutusov and Charles. Their cav. leader is VERY useful in pursuit. 3) You can afford to be unpredictable. I once had a battle against the Russians in which I chose outflank with their cav. leader (can't remember his name for the life of me). The Ruskies took defend. The outflanking force arrived in the second turn, and I managed to break the Russians easily. The ensuing pursuit wiped them out! Needless to say, the Ruskies ceded the Crimea and Podolia pretty quick! [:D]

mars -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/16/2004 7:24:23 AM)
I am currently playing Turkey in FTF game they can manage Cav sup vs the Austrians but not against Russia. Look at the force pool sizes. Also it depends on whether you use the additional leader penalties for lots of corps, otherwise Pelchivan Khan is not that good. Please tell me when the Austrians would be attacking the Turks without Charles? or the Russians without the bulk of their army. The Turkish army is too small, and put in all the other restrictions it just plain sucks. Please explain why the entire Turkish army is about 140 factors and the English army is 86 quality factors? The Russian army is around 200 factors, and the Austrians are certainly on a par when built up. Mario a disgruntled Sultan. quote: ORIGINAL: JRichert I always thought Tu was a very interesting play. As someone pointed out, you really need to be a politician though. The Turks have a few advantages: 1) They should have cav superiority in all of their battles. 2) They have some decent leaders, but Pechlivan Khan is better than anything the Ruskies or Austrians throw at them, short of Kutusov and Charles. Their cav. leader is VERY useful in pursuit. 3) You can afford to be unpredictable. I once had a battle against the Russians in which I chose outflank with their cav. leader (can't remember his name for the life of me). The Ruskies took defend. The outflanking force arrived in the second turn, and I managed to break the Russians easily. The ensuing pursuit wiped them out! Needless to say, the Ruskies ceded the Crimea and Podolia pretty quick! [:D]

megalomania2003 -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/16/2004 12:02:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mars I am currently playing Turkey in FTF game they can manage Cav sup vs the Austrians but not against Russia. Look at the force pool sizes. Also it depends on whether you use the additional leader penalties for lots of corps, otherwise Pelchivan Khan is not that good. Please tell me when the Austrians would be attacking the Turks without Charles? or the Russians without the bulk of their army. The Turkish army is too small, and put in all the other restrictions it just plain sucks. Please explain why the entire Turkish army is about 140 factors and the English army is 86 quality factors? The Russian army is around 200 factors, and the Austrians are certainly on a par when built up. Mario a disgruntled Sultan. Tu should be able to manage 32 Cav from their own + maybe 12 from Syria (5 or 6 corps). If the russians have 17 Cav (against a pure Tu force) they need to have included: Guard, 1-3rd Corps and 1-2nd Cav corps + 3 Cs (12 Gd, 36 inf, 3 Cs and 15 Cav) - a very small army. If you are, as I am, playing with additional leader penalties, The only way the russian can get an army of some size, if they want a decent leader, is to drop a few Cav corps and bring some inf (and art). It is true that Tu�s leader is worse than Kutuzov or Charles, which he will norrmally be facing, but he is still good enough to ensure that Ru or Au will only gain +1 or give -1. In addition Tu will have the benefit of being on the defensive and will thus find it much easier and cheaper to keep his corps supplied and together. Compared to other armies the Tu army sucks (but when you consider GB remember that GB only have 8 Cav) but the fact is that the other MP�s will have to worry about Fr, and even if they have an enforced peace with Fr they still need to finish the war with Tu and be back to face Fr - so they do not have much time. It is true that Ru can choose to ignore Fr, but if he is doing this what about GB. If the entire Ru army is in Turkey, whom is going to defend Sweden and St Petersburg (remember the politician part).

Barbu -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/16/2004 10:52:17 PM)
If Russia is going to bring 6 corps together under Kutusov to prevent cavalry superiority, might as well bring 8. This would mean Corps 1-3, artillery, Cav 1-2, guard, and an additional 10 inf corps for a total of 56I, 10gd, 10 art, 1-3 ck, 16C so 93-95 factors. If the Syrian corps isn't on the turkish mainland, this will prevent Turkish cavalry superiority. If it is, replace 10 I by 4C and the army is down to 87 factors. Given that Kutusov's tactical rating is 3, and that cavalry superiority cannot be achieved, Turkey can either try to match Kutusov's rating by sending 6 corps (~60 factors), 9 corps for a -1 DRM (~90 factors), or 12 corps for -1 DRM too (~120 factors). Now do that battle a few times with the 9 or 12 corps scenario with random chits and see how often Turkey wins. That's also assuming things will degenerate in a slugfest. In a more fluid battle, Russian advantage is even greater. As far as St-Petersburgh goes, good point. However, it is my opinion that Great Britain is Russia's #1 enemy at the start of the game. Before invading Turkey, Russia must make sure that GB is neutralized, either through an ongoing war with France (the french navy, provided it's still floating, will provide that protection), through an alliance with Spain, or through an all out invasion of GB. Invading Turkey without one of these conditions as a form of protection is a foolish from any russian player. Everytime I've seen things go REALLY bad for Russia was due to GB taking control of the baltic. This is Russia's only weakness at the beginning of the game and a smart russian player should make sure that this is a situation that is corrected in short order.

malcolm_mccallum -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/17/2004 12:28:48 AM)
Yes, Turkey is generally the weakest nation militarily and financially. It has the least to offer politically but that is the strength of it. That is the fun of it. Certainly Turkey isn't going to go marching on Moscow or Vienna and taking it with impunity. Hurrah for a game that has the courage to stick with that historical model. I've played too many games where, in an effort to 'balance' nations for gameplay on what might have been (hey! Let's let the 1812 British use Longbows since they were superior to muskets and give them huge bonuses in battle) that do nothing other than skew what is actually a balanced game. It is a balanced political game BECAUSE Turkey and Spain are weak. There needs to be nations who can try to ride the coattails of greater nations. There needs to be nations that a great nation can give concessions to that will appear to be non-threatening. There needs to be smaller, weaker nations that can be bought to provide support in a war and there needs to be smaller nations that a great nation can try to make war on when it is not at full capacity. In my experience, a good player who can win with France can also win with Austria and Turkey. They don't need special tools (unless you count the tool playing Russia[:D].

JRichert -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/17/2004 12:40:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Barbu If Russia is going to bring 6 corps together under Kutusov to prevent cavalry superiority, might as well bring 8. Agreed. Remember, for the most part, Turkey should be able to keep most of her army in one stack against the Russians or the Austrians. quote: This would mean Corps 1-3, artillery, Cav 1-2, guard, and an additional 10 inf corps for a total of 56I, 10gd, 10 art, 1-3 ck, 16C so 93-95 factors. If the Syrian corps isn't on the turkish mainland, this will prevent Turkish cavalry superiority. If it is, replace 10 I by 4C and the army is down to 87 factors. Given that Kutusov's tactical rating is 3, and that cavalry superiority cannot be achieved, Turkey can either try to match Kutusov's rating by sending 6 corps (~60 factors), 9 corps for a -1 DRM (~90 factors), or 12 corps for -1 DRM too (~120 factors). It sounds to me like your diplomacy has failed. There is NO way that Russia should be able to throw all that cav. at you without repurcussions. Chit choices should be outflank or echelon. If you want to bleed him go with one of the assault options. Pechlivan Khan is great at outflanking. I have found that typically the Turks fight Bagration since Kutusov is normally off fighting in the main theater. quote: Now do that battle a few times with the 9 or 12 corps scenario with random chits and see how often Turkey wins. That's also assuming things will degenerate in a slugfest. In a more fluid battle, Russian advantage is even greater. Ahhh... I think I see the problem, random chit draws would seriously hamper Turkey. They need to focus on chits that put them on the high morale columns. Otherwise they can get stomped. quote: As far as St-Petersburgh goes, good point. However, it is my opinion that Great Britain is Russia's #1 enemy at the start of the game. Before invading Turkey, Russia must make sure that GB is neutralized, either through an ongoing war with France (the french navy, provided it's still floating, will provide that protection), through an alliance with Spain, or through an all out invasion of GB. Invading Turkey without one of these conditions as a form of protection is a foolish from any russian player. Everytime I've seen things go REALLY bad for Russia was due to GB taking control of the baltic. This is Russia's only weakness at the beginning of the game and a smart russian player should make sure that this is a situation that is corrected in short order. I think your problem is you need to get either Prussia, France, or GB to take Russia in the back. None of those three gain anything if Russia turns Turkey into her plaything. You might even be able to get Austria to tell Russia to back off, because if Russia gets too much in the Balkans, Austria loses out too. One thing everyone forgets is once France is beat down a bit, Russia becomes the bear in the game. It is tough to bring her to terms, and sometimes it requires the help of Prussia and Austria. I have seen France beat down, and then Russia steamrolls Austria and Prussia. In both cases Turkey can help relieve the pressure off of these nations. I would point this out to those players in this game and see if it helps. Also, see if you can get off of random chit selection. That really hurts your chances in battle.

1LTRambo -> RE: 12.10 Turkish Options (11/18/2004 7:15:21 PM)
It is a balanced political game BECAUSE Turkey and Spain are weak. There needs to be nations who can try to ride the coattails of greater nations. There needs to be nations that a great nation can give concessions to that will appear to be non-threatening. There needs to be smaller, weaker nations that can be bought to provide support in a war and there needs to be smaller nations that a great nation can try to make war on when it is not at full capacity. In my experience, a good player who can win with France can also win with Austria and Turkey. They don't need special tools (unless you count the tool playing Russia[:D]. [/quote] I believe Avalon Hill created a great game in the sense that they took the historical perspective on the creation of the strengths and weaknesses of each nation. Historically; Britain was a great sea power, France was a great land power, and Turkey was becoming the "Sick man of Europe". So of course Turkey is weak economically and militarily, and could not be expected to go head to head against the other stronger majors. But that is where politics come in and the ability for Turkey to manipulate its neighbors in order to gain political points and win the game. Remember, the game is one on PP and not brute force.

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