RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (Full Version)

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Onime No Kyo -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 5:27:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

No offense BossGnome, but its because of people with attitudes like yours that WW2 started. If Britain and France had been like America with Iraq, as soon as Germany reoccupied teh Rhineland they should have moved in and ousted Hitler. No Hitler, no annexing Austria. No Hitler, No swallowing of Czechoslovakia. No Hitler, no invasion of Poland. No Hitler, no massacre of millions of Jews. But, because Britain and France stood by, like what you are advocating, on September 2, the World exploded. And look how many paid the price.


Dont start Tanker. Like the man said, hindsight is 20/20. And if you have even an inkling of comparing Hitler to Saddam, I suggest you think it over carefully. We're not talking about a powerhungry dictator with a first-class military (equal to anything in the world) and an ideology that promotes racism. We are talking about a wannabe dictator with a has-been shambles of a military and no ideology. Thats right! Islam is not an ideology, its a religion, and a damn sensible one at that. It does not promote bigotry and genocide, they just have many, many legitimate gripes against our (Canada and UK included) foreign policy.

Not getting on your case or anything, I know you are just as intelligent, informed and able to discern information as anyone in here, but if you were planning to go where I think you were, it was a bad idea.



esteban -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 5:32:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossGnome

wait a minute guys, you all sound DISSAPOINTED in canada's defense...yeah i agree with you its a piece of ****. But give me one good argument why canada would need military? It hasnt pissed off the terrorists, or if it has, not enough to be noticed, no problem there. We don't fight wars, we dont get attacked. Basically we just need like a couple of guys with blue berets to be "peacekeepers". Honestly, why the hell would we want fancy new jet-fighters? Just to say we do? Think about it this way guys: if no one had any weapons whatsoever, the world would be quite a better place. Personally, thats why i played wargames. If only the fate of a country was decided on that, and not a real war...


Wow, this seems more than a little naive.

1) If Al Qaeda-style terrorists are willing to target Australia, do you really think they would pass up a shot at Canadians if they felt they had one? Sure, Americans get you more points, but Canucks will do. Especially if you could blow up an American consulate or corporate target in Canada. If Al Qaeda is willing to off hundreds of Tanzanians and Kenyans to get a dozen Americans, do you really think they would have any qualms about killing Canadians?

2) Eventually those blue-helmeted Canadians are going to end up somewhere that Al Qaeda doesn't want them--Sudan, Israel/Palestine, Somalia, Afghanistan, or so on. Then they will be targeted just like anyone else. At that point Canada can either choose to walk out on it's principles and pull the troops out, or fight back.

3) If Canada did become a "haven for terrorism" then the border would start to be locked down, and Canadian jobs would suffer. How many Canadians were killed in the WTC on 9/11? I would be willing to bet at least 30-40.

4) Canada produces quite a bit of modern Western culture on it's own. Do you think that Osama hates seeing Muslim girls dance around to Madonna or Britney Spears, but doesn't mind Nelly Furtado or Celina Dion posters on their bedroom walls? Or that Lorne Michaels-style political and social satire would be welcome on Saturday Night Live Baghdad edition? If Al Qaeda somehow erased the United States overnight, the war wouldn't stop tomorrow.

5) If no one had any weapons whatsoever....a lot of people would immediately start building them. And at the front of the line would be a bunch of very bad people who have little regard for Canadian standards of civil, international and human rights law. Let's face it, it seems the world is already losing the battle to keep the nuclear genie in the bottle. The last 6-7 years have seen more new nuclear powers than any similar period since the 1940s. Do you really think that somehow all the advances in chemistry that lead to plastics, pharmaceuticals, synthetic fibers and liquid fuels would not be used to put gunpowder back on the market?

6) You play wargames, which are simulations of warfare. Certainly better than the real thing, but implicit in your play is the possibility that people feel the need to compete. Sometimes that competition has very dark origins and results. You might enjoy a game about warfare, but some guy across the world may look at that game and decide that simply playing at warfare is not enough to meet his needs.


Moral:
Does Canada need a bunch of modern fighter aircraft? No idea really. Does it need submarines? Maybe not. But it definitely needs something if it intends to stand up for the values that Canadian society is based on.



Tankerace -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 5:35:38 AM)

Hindsight is 20/20 yes. But remember, in 1936 Hitler was a wannabe dictator, without a first class military. That's where my point comes in. Had Britain and France intervened when German was comparable to Iraq, then WW2 might have been prevented.

As to Islam, it a religion. I don't agree with it, but I don't think anything bad about it, just like I don't think anything bad about Judaism. Its there belief, and that's fine.



pasternakski -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 5:43:30 AM)

Let's see, here ... we started out making sport of Canadian national defense (and mighty entertaining it was), moved on to mentioning New Zealand's lack of an air force, noted that an English submarine bought by Canada had "something of a cock up," discovered, sadly, that a Canadian officer had died in the incident, and now we learn that various pseudo-Hitlers are afoot in the forums (or afore in the footums, I forget which).

Easy, fer chrissake, willya? The patch is only a few days away, from what I hear.

Note, Matrix, this is what's happening to people...



Onime No Kyo -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 5:56:04 AM)

Nazi Germany was never comparable to Iraq. Iraq is and has always been an underdeveloped, resource-difficient, largely uneducated society that had been artificially created and forcibly kept together. It is split ethnically and historically.

Germany was a highly developed, homogenious, industrial society full of pissed-off, educated, capable people with a military tradition virtually unmatched in the world to this day.

On top of everything else, it has been argued that what gave the Germans such an advantage over their opponents was their military doctrine (namely Blitzkrieg). Obviously, the competence of the Wehrmacht was a major factor. But in any case, this bears absolutely no comparsion to the Iraqis. These poor bastards on their best day had a military that could have been considered modern only in the 1980s. Any decent army could have beat the snot out of them in a standup fight. Maybe not so quickly or "cheaply" but beat them nonetheless.



Tankerace -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 6:27:06 AM)

Ug, I was originaly trying to point out one persons naivety, and was not wanting to debate the point. Here are my reasons for standing by what I said. If you look, many are similar cases with Iraq.

1) In 1936, Germany possesed few, lightly armed ill armoured tanks. In fact, the Pz II would not enter service in numbers until 1937, so the Pz I was the main MBT.
2) The German army, compared to other western armies, was vastly understrength (100,000 men).
3) The German Kriegsmarine's most powerful ships were the Deutshland class Panzerschiffes (2 in service, though Admiral Scheer would not be effective until 1937).
4) German posses only a token Luftwaffe, and with the exception of the Bf-109B had inferior planes to other air forces)
5) You had a dictator, which laughed in the face of every treaty signed, and tried to expand.
6) Its army was left in shambles thanks to a previous war.

Iraq was in a very similar position. Your main point on defeating my argument is saying the Wehrmacht was powerful, well trained, etc. My argument, however, talks of the German army of 1936, when the Wehrmacht didn't exist as a competent force, the military small, its tanks undergunned, and its airforce non existent. That IS a good comparison to Iraq. In both situations, you had a dictator that laughed in the face of signed treaty's, and who tried to get a way with unlawful things. The difference is Hitler got away with it.

And, FYI with regards to your post with Islam, religion has no bearing on this. It wouldn't matter if he worshipped Allah, God, Yaweh, or a bloody rock. People seem to think religion plays a massive part in the War on Iraq. The only part it plays is for those who damn the war to use it as a tool to incite others to damn it aswell.

If I had compared the German forces of 1939 to those of Iraq, then yes I am using an invalid argument. But the forces of 1936, and intervening at Hitler's first land grab DO bear a marked resemblance, like it or not.

Plus, I am also talking Governments and military, NOT the civilian population. Yes Iraq was split. But their leader called the shots, much like Hitler, irregardless of what the people wanted.

Now, off politics, and back to WiTP! I haven't played in a week, I need my patch! [:D]



Onime No Kyo -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 6:34:09 AM)

Amen brother. [:D] Back to things that make logical sense. [:D]



strawbuk -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 12:39:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GBirkn

The BBC says one of the officers died today. He'd been airlifted to a hospital in Ireland, but didn't pull through. It may be Friday before they can get a tow line rigged. It sounds like the situation has only gotten worse over the last 24 hours, although at least there are three ships on the scene now.


Yeah I hearby regret my opening gag - bad timing. Apols to canucks.



BossGnome -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 8:53:25 PM)

lets not talk about the war in iraq ok? that was never my intent. Personally im against it, but since im canadian its none of my damn buisness. What I am saying, is that canada has a population of 30 000 000 people, and would have no reason to upp its military. For several reasons:

1) canada is a valuable trade partner to a lot of countries.
2) Who the heck would attack it? the taliban? no not really, we went to afghanistan, but you seem to be mixing the taliban régime and saddam hussein. We have no troops in Iraq, remember. However i'm pretty sure Australia does. Canada is thus not very high on the terrorist list.
3) If the US wasnt able to stop sept 11th, what are a few million dollars more going to do to canada's military budget in the face of the terrorist threat, which (for the moment at least) it does not face? Nothing, that's what.
4) Canada really doesnt have the money to upgrade its military, and its not mmore money thats going to do anything. You americans seem to forget that your military budget for one year would be enough to pay off our country's debt. We're just not that rich, and its not that useful.



BossGnome -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 8:54:16 PM)

ps: my meaning for point #1 was that the taliban were essentially wiped out in afghanistan.



juliet7bravo -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 9:16:25 PM)

"an underdeveloped, resource-difficient, largely uneducated society that had been artificially created and forcibly kept together. It is split ethnically and historically."

Actually, that DOES describe pre-modern Germany with the exception of being "largely uneducated"...



madmickey -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 9:35:59 PM)

BossGnome
In the 1980s Canadian did not want to deal with Sikh terrorist because they were attacking India which was not part of the British (empire) commonwealth. The Air India attack was the result(400 people dead). Al quaeda has used Canada as a staging based in its planned millenium attack on USA. By the way Russia shipped oil and other supply to Germany prior to The German invasion in 1941 even though the USSR was warned of the attack Stalin though trading with Germany would protect it.



madmickey -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 9:43:15 PM)

A better argument is should our defense budget should have been spent on other items instead of used diesel subs. They could not be even used for arctic sovereignty.



testarossa -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 10:32:53 PM)

Hello guys,
May be some of you were submariners and could explain me some stuff about HMCS Chicoutimi fire.
So it was major fire. Weren’t they supposed to seal bulkheads, put on gas masks and put the fire out at the same time shut down ventilation system to prevent the access of oxygen to the compartment? Then how come they expended all portable fire extinguishers?

How did they get smoke inhalation injuries if they were wearing gas masks (if they were of course?). As I remember from first aid course with smoke inhalation injured either dies instantly either some time later due to the burns to trachea and lungs by high temperature air. If there are no burns usually oxygen bottle helps to recover injured to stable condition. So why did it take them 24 hours to call the airlift?

I have bad feeling that some fatass from Ottawa just tried to downplay the scale of accident for some time and than just pretend that nothing happened.

Here is the quote:
"A few of the 57 crew members aboard HMCS Chicoutimi suffered some smoke inhalation, said Canadian navy spokesman Mike Bonin. But otherwise there were no injuries.

"Everybody on board is safe," Bonin said. "There was a small fire on board. It was quickly put out. The sub has surfaced and is awaiting a tug to take it to somewhere along the European coast."
"It's probably going to get a little cold, but they have sufficient blankets and other means to keep warm," he said."

Doesn’t sound like two sailors received terminal injuries, does it? Blankets for crying out loud!



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 10:34:16 PM)

Canada has tons of money, politicians just spend it on crap like bilingualism, culture, beauracracy etc. Hell, we could have funded a manned shot to Mars if we had not blown it on bilingualism.



UncleBuck -> RE: Ron and fellow Canadians (10/7/2004 10:42:59 PM)

I don't kow about Canadian ship board firefighting, but I do know about USN firfighting. The Smoke inhalation was probably from the people in the compartment where the fire occured. they probably tried to put out the fire first. Depending on where the fire occured using all of the onboard fire extinguishers was probabl in a effort to save electronic eqipment. Saltwater wich is used on vessels at sea is very bad for wiring. Also since they had just done some re-fitting in GB they may not have had fully functioning fire fighting equipment onboard, or a full crew. Sealing a compartment only goes so far. If it was an electrical fire or a fire in a machinery space just denying the fire oxygen is not always enough. Combine this with many of the exotic metals used to make lightweight but strong parts such as magnesium, they do not need oxygen, they make there own. There ar emany reasons why this coudl have happened as it did.

As for the Fatcat making a CYA statement, well that woudln't be the first. Just look at teh last sub disaster, Kursk.

UB



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