Best way to eliminate bunkers (Full Version)

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StefanE -> Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/11/2004 1:49:52 PM)

Hello

I've just started to play Lost Victories and in the first scenario there are lots of bunkers of different kinds. Suddenly I realised that I have no idea of the best way to take out a bunker or which factors that affect the success.

My efforts so far have been to find the bunkers with recon units. Run up on them from their "blind" sides. Assault them when in the turn *after* their latest movement. With that approach I usually get success probabilities between 20% and 40%. Is there any way to increase those numbers?

If the assault unit doesn't succeed I usually don't try again in the same turn since I seem to get a success probability of 9-11% in the second try. Instead I wait until the following turn. Should I wait longer?

Sometimes when the assault don't succeed the unit gets a suppression of 25 (from 0), but mostly the suppression stops at 12-15. What factors influence the suppression level?

Even if the assaults don't succeed the bunkers do get routed, but I haven't noticed that the crews ever abandon the bunkers. Does that ever happen, and if so; how do I force it?

OK, thats a lot of questions with a (not so) little bit av newbie-warning, but I would appreciate some light in this topic.

/Stefan



Clipper1968 -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/11/2004 4:06:20 PM)

Before starting the first scen you get different options:IMHO choose the engineers platoon which will represent a very helpful asset for destroying those bunkers.Assault them with satchel charge by the rear side and you will probably get better result even if it doesn't work systematically.You can also use your infantry squads using their AT weapons for this purpose.IIRC the best way to increase your chance to destroy those pillboxes,observer bunkers,etc...is to move your squads next to the bunker and assault them on the next turn:pretty good results.

I have always played with command radius on and if the leader unit is correctly placed you can rally them quite easily saving time.

I have only saw routed crew bunkers abandoning their position one time but it was at the end of the battle and the victory was already mine.

So I hope this will answer a little bit to your questions,but I have not been playing this MCLV since a long time.



Poopyhead -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/11/2004 4:58:49 PM)

I usually don't waste engineers on bunkers. A scout patrol can lob a grenade into the door as easily as an engineer can throw a satchel charge. Smoke the front of the bunker so that they are unemployed and then have the scouts attack at least twice a turn. I have destroyed Japanese bunkers on the second attack from a scout that had 10% suppression. Don't forget that a human opponent may bail out and attack with small arms, so have a security force present that is ready to rock. I am not familiar with the scenario that you are playing, but some bunkers/fortifications can be penetrated by tanks or ATG's from behind as well. Also, unless the bunkers are on Victory Hexes and must be taken, you can always just bypass them.



Clipper1968 -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/11/2004 6:28:56 PM)

Interesting as I have never tried to destroy those Soviet bunkers with my german scout patrol.[X(]Should try...
Regarding this specific scen of MCLV,it is a crossing river assault that means only your german infantry squads can cross the river with their dinghies.
I was referring to AT weapons because your infantry squads are only equipped with AT launch grenades.(no hand grenades available).
Moreover you can use your 3 StuG IIIb to bombard viewed pillboxes in support of your infantry from the other side of the river.
Believe me or not but one time I have even succeeded to destroy one bunker with them.[8D]I am still wondering how it was possible?[&:]

I think that bunker crew only leave their position when all bunker's weapons are destroyed or damaged;so they can continue the combat with their individual weapons.I guess so...



Procrustes -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/11/2004 8:00:07 PM)

I really enjoyed the first few scenarios of LV - there are a number of bunkers that you get to pick your way through. Besides smoking them or assaulting them w/ infantry/engineers, you get a lot of opportunities to use your Stugs, 75mm IG's and 37mm ATG's on them. The trick is to fire across the front face of the bunker, directly into it's appeture - a bunker will die pretty quickly once you put a couple of rounds inside it, but with a smaller gun you can pound away all day from the side or rear and never phase them. Your Stugs should not be moving on the turn they start firing - they only have a few AP rounds and they will kill a bunker a lot quicker than the HE rounds, so you want them to count. You want to push your IG/AT gun up in front of the bunker one hex at a time - try to pick a spot w/ some cover (trees, shell holes, etc.) If you are playing w/ C&C on make sure you switch them to defensive stance once you get there - makes them much harder to spot, route less, and get more opp fires. Gun units are fragile, so you may need to use another unit to assault or lob a few shells at the bunker first so that you can keep it suppressed enough that you can move into position without being gunned down. (An arty barrage works well, too - small mortars are great.) Then start firing away! The 75mm IG's often get a couple of AP rounds but they are only modestly accurate. The AT guns are quite accurate and have a high rate-of-fire - real bunker killers. The 150mm field guns are useless for this - they are too big to manuver or hide, fire very slowly, are very inaccurate (splash damage doesn't sway bunkers much), and the splash is so big that you can't have a friendly unit nearby. Whenever I've tried to use them for this trick, they've just gotten picked off.

Takes a little practice but I think it's a fun way to deal w/ bunkers. On the first scenario of LV you can't get the guns across the river, but there are a few bunkers you can snipe at from your side. After that you have a way across, and get to take them on directly.



Poopyhead -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/11/2004 8:59:01 PM)

I read somewhere that if you turn off the assault team's other weapons and only attack with the AT weapon or the grenade, then they don't get suppressed. I've often regretted that one cannot simply use a keystroke to activate the "Die, bunker, die!" function.



Procrustes -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/12/2004 12:19:47 AM)

If you assault and fail, you will end up suppressed. If you just fire your weapons and don't assault, you will not be suppressed if you don't destroy the bunker. The best way not to assault with your engineers is to target the bunker (use the icon or the "T" key), then fire only your satchel charge (use the icon or the "C" key).

One good thing about assaulting is that if you succeed then the bunker is autmatically destroyed - there is no "to hit" followed by a "to damage/kill" roll. The other nice thing is that you magically don't deplete any of your ammo - you will have just as many satchel charges after an assault as before. The bad things about assaults are that the odds of success can be pretty low, especially if you have moved or been fired upon, and that you can take a bit of suppression if you fail.



StefanE -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/12/2004 10:10:24 AM)

Thank you all for your answers!

Just one last question (and one question repeated): Is it easier to succeed an assault with infantry units at the front of the bunker than at the rear or sides? And finally; does the number of turns adjacent to the bunker increase the hit probability or is it just a waist of time to wait more than one turn before assaulting?



robot -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/12/2004 3:12:38 PM)

Rear then sides and then front in an emergency such as with atr for instance. Waiting more then one turn is a waste of time in my opinion. Smoke the front move to the rear assault blow it up then move to next one. In a hurry smoke bypass come back later if you have the time.



Procrustes -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (10/12/2004 6:48:24 PM)

I agree that my prefered spot to close assault from is the back - if you assault from the front you are apt to get shot to pieces.

But if you are shooting at the bunker, then it's best to shoot from the front - you want your shot to go into the gun appature. Infantry AT weapons (bazookas, panzerfaust) are great for this if you can position them without them getting blasted. (Keep assaulting it from the rear/side while you move up your 'zook.)

I don't think that the number of turns next to a bunker helps, but it helps a lot not to be moving and to have zero suppression. And it really helps to have some weapon like a satchel charge, flame thrower, AT mine, etc.



Soft(war)e -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (11/27/2004 3:02:14 PM)

Bunkers just need to be neutralized with smoke. Busting them is just a nuisance if you can get your troops past them before you smoke drifts away.

However, if you insist on blowing them up, here's my approach. Assult from side or rear with engineers, if unsuccessful, your troops will be suppressed. For the second try, don't rally them. That way, they will fire all their weapons in succession instead of the standard assault, gaining a good hit-probability when the time comes for the FT and satchel-charge. FOOOSH-KABOOM!!![:D]

You might even willfully botch their assault by turning their FT and satchel OFF on the initial assault, so as to gain the suppressed status without expending ammo. Maybe even holding back the FT and satchel for a subsequent fire with small arms to gain higher Hit-Prob.



OKW-73 -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (11/28/2004 6:11:44 PM)

I personally use artillery to shoot smoke screen front of bunker. Then take it out behind with engineers or just leave it alone if no need to destroy it.



KNomad -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (11/28/2004 11:28:04 PM)

I just go for as many assaults as I can when I have to.

Make the assault, then tap the 'R' key just enough to get the units suppression to under 10, assault again.
Rally, assault, repeat. I've had units make multiple assaults per turn - sometimes as much as six times.
Once they fail to rally, dump the ordance on the bunker, then move in another unit to repeat.



KG Erwin -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (11/30/2004 2:58:43 AM)

KNomad, I seldom bypass a bunker or other fortification. If they occupy a VH, then you have no choice, but tanks are great in direct-fire against these b*stards. The only problem is, you gotta have assault infantry/engineers in direct support. I play Pacific, and I try the corkscrew and blowtorch method, which generally worked in real-life. In-game, this is direct fire with tanks and bazookas, and indirect-fire close-support mortars. This should suppress the garrison enough to close in and just burn and blast them out, whether by close assault or repeated doses of satchel charges and flame-throwers. Seeing one of these SOBs blow up gives me a sense of satisfaction, and incinerating an infantry squad stacked in that hex only adds to it. I HATE losing men, and if one of those infernal pillbox/bunkers kills some of my guys, I just gotta take it out. That's all there is to it. As a Marine commander, the desire for revenge sometimes takes hold, and you are just overtaken by it in the heat of action. [sm=00000612.gif]

PS It is very easy for me to understand why no quarter was, and IS, given during those situations. This makes some folks uncomfortable, but if this blood-revenge takes hold even in a computer game, imagine how this must have felt in the 1940s, and DOES feel in today's war.



KNomad -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (12/1/2004 6:45:47 AM)

No doubt - a little supression fire always helps before tackling a tough defender. [:D]



MarkIV -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/4/2005 3:56:31 AM)

This tread brings up a problem I've been having. Many times, when assualting a bunker my infantry have satchel charges and gernades, instead of using them they perform an assualt. Is there a way to bypass doing the assualt and have them use their explosives.



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/4/2005 7:00:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkIV

This tread brings up a problem I've been having. Many times, when assualting a bunker my infantry have satchel charges and gernades, instead of using them they perform an assualt. Is there a way to bypass doing the assualt and have them use their explosives.


Target the bunker, then hit the 'C' key to fire one specific weapon. Select the number of the satchel charge, and your unit will make a regular direct fire attack using only this weapon.



pepek -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/10/2005 2:27:48 AM)

i assault only.
simple reason, havenīt u noticed that if an assault fails they donīt use up the munition, in this case the charge or mine.
if u simply shoot the bunker and miss, the mun. is gon and u have to take a diff. unit to finish the job.
in my eyes the best bunkerbusters are german scout troops, why bither a ten man troop if a four men team does the job.



minefield -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/10/2005 6:04:59 AM)

read corrections in following posts

quote:

ORIGINAL: pepek

i assault only.
simple reason, havenīt u noticed that if an assault fails they donīt use up the munition, in this case the charge or mine.
if u simply shoot the bunker and miss, the mun. is gon and u have to take a diff. unit to finish the job.
in my eyes the best bunkerbusters are german scout troops, why bither a ten man troop if a four men team does the job.



This didn't sound right so I did some tests. Was very surprised with what I found out.
You can't assault 'with (weapon)' with HE weapons or AP weapons (satchel charges, flame throwers, anti-tank rifles). You can assault fortifications 'with (weapon)' with HEAT weapons like anti-tank mines, bazooka, etc. Anti-tank mines show as AP on buy screen but are listed as HEAT in game.

You can assault vehicles with pretty much anything that has penetration (AT rifle, satchel charges, anti-tank mines, flame thrower).

Anytime you assault 'with (weapon)' you lose ammo regardless of outcome (success, failure, immbolization). An engineer with both Satchel (slot 3) and anti-tank mine (slot 4) will use the satchel first to assault. You do not have to have shots to assault with a weapon but you do have to have ammo for that weapon.

If the unit aborts the assault (no sound, no animation, suppression increases, other units op-fire) then no ammo is used.

You gain a large percentage when you assault 'with (weapon)'. I have not studied the exact increase or how different weapons affect it.



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/10/2005 7:45:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: minefield

quote:

ORIGINAL: pepek

i assault only.
simple reason, havenīt u noticed that if an assault fails they donīt use up the munition, in this case the charge or mine.
if u simply shoot the bunker and miss, the mun. is gon and u have to take a diff. unit to finish the job.
in my eyes the best bunkerbusters are german scout troops, why bither a ten man troop if a four men team does the job.



This didn't sound right so I did some tests. Was very surprised with what I found out.
You can't assault 'with (weapon)' with HE weapons or AP weapons (satchel charges, flame throwers, anti-tank rifles). You can assault fortifications 'with (weapon)' with HEAT weapons like anti-tank mines, bazooka, etc. Anti-tank mines show as AP on buy screen but are listed as HEAT in game.

You can assault vehicles with pretty much anything that has penetration (AT rifle, satchel charges, anti-tank mines, flame thrower).

Anytime you assault 'with (weapon)' you lose ammo regardless of outcome (success, failure, immbolization). An engineer with both Satchel (slot 3) and anti-tank mine (slot 4) will use the satchel first to assault. You do not have to have shots to assault with a weapon but you do have to have ammo for that weapon.

If the unit aborts the assault (no sound, no animation, suppression increases, other units op-fire) then no ammo is used.

You gain a large percentage when you assault 'with (weapon)'. I have not studied the exact increase or how different weapons affect it.


minefield, what do you mean when you say that you can't assault 'with (weapon)' with HE or AP weapons? I can certainly assault a bunker with a flamethrower (have done it many times), and I can attack it by using just the flamethrower by using the 'C' hotkey. I'm confused about your statement... [sm=dizzy.gif][sm=dizzy.gif][sm=crazy.gif]



minefield -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/10/2005 8:20:35 AM)

That's what I thought too. I just ran a test in v8.3 with GE FT Engineers against a heavy fort, cave, etc. and they would not assault 'with flamethrower'. I do not understand it. Tried it with IT Flamethrower sections and got same result.

Of course you can always attack with any weapon with any ammo type by using C key.

If you run a test and get different results explain the setup and I will try to duplicate.



minefield -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/10/2005 8:27:02 AM)

Ok so there is some other condition I missed. Low armored fortifications like log bunkers can be assaulted with flame thrower while heavy structures cannot.

More tests:
log mg yes
at pillbox yes
lt pillbox no
log rifle yes
mg nest yes
hvy pillbox no
gun emplacement yes
gun casement no
obs post no

Looks like anything with least base armor over 51 is not subject to flame thrower assaults.



robot -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/10/2005 2:28:32 PM)

I dont understand what your saying either. I have assaulted all kinds of bunkers with target fire buttons and they always cycle thru using flame and mine. Also have used the c key for just the flame and it has always gone off except when heavy surpressed. And of course when they have run out of ammo they dont use it. My flame tanks also have always used there flame on all type of bunkers.



minefield -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/10/2005 6:36:23 PM)

Ok let me start from the beginning. I reread my post and I believe I was pretty clear that I was talking about assaulting only. I am not talking about when you attack (cycle through weapons) or when you press the c key to attack with a certain weapon (to avoid triggering an assault). I am only talking about assault. Assault is when the animation plays, a sound plays, and you see a message in the lower right saying that the unit is assaulting.

Now if you have noticed these messages you will see that with the right conditions it will append the usual message so it appears as, "GE FT Engineer is assaulting Log MG Pit with flamethrower". What I was talking about in my post is when this occurs. I focused on this subclass of assaults because the evidence I found was in direct contradiction to MarkIV's statement that a failed assault doesn't use ammo. What I found was that any assault that has the 'with (weapon)' message uses up ammo. If it is a regular assault without the message indicating a weapon was used to bolster the attack or if the assault falters (no animation, no sound) then no ammo will be used as well.

Where I went wrong was in using only type of fortification in my testing. However I did learn something after FlashfyreSP pointed out my error and insinuated that I'm crazy. The assaults that are bolstered 'with (weapon)' are triggered when the penetration value of the weapon is sufficiently higher than the armor value of the target. The reason why this information is important is because in some cases you are better off using the c key to use the weapon in direct fire (pen higher than armor but not high enough for bolstering assault) rather than assaulting. If you are able to assault 'with (weapon)' your chances for success are much higher and assaulting might be preferred to direct fire.

For more information see http://spwaw.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4140 .

As always you can c key fire a select weapon. I never said you couldn't. As always, if you are pinned and next to an armored unit or fortification you are going to fire as you normally would rather than assault. If you are greater than one hex away the infantry will fire normally. Flame tanks aren't infantry, can't assault, and have nothing to do with what I said.



robot -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/11/2005 2:40:42 PM)

SorrryI the way i got it was not about the use of the weapon in assault but that they didnt use the flame thrower at all on certain bunkers. My mistake. I have never looked to see what weapon goes off in an assault. It is always a big boom I just assumed they were using explosives and not the flame any way. And when they dont assault is usually because they are shaking in there pants and suppresion jumps up in the 20 something and it is a failed attempt.

I like taking on the bunkers so if i see them we assault them. And i try to use engineers for the job if they are close enough. They always seem to do the job some times not to well tho. Most of the time i let them assault but some time use the c key and the flame they carry. Just have never looked to see how they do it or which weapon.



minefield -> RE: Best way to eliminate bunkers (1/11/2005 3:58:47 PM)

Well no apologies needed. If I sounded remonstrative or angry, that was not the case. Any hostility was coming from another source I assure you.
I agree with you that there is a certain satisfaction in blowing those strongpoints sky high. If your engineer isn't spotted, has a weapon powerful enough to use against the bunker in the assault, and is ready, then his percentage could be as high as 80% (you might've seen some higher). However if he is out of ammo and spotted (usually the case after several assaults this round already), then his percentage could be as low as the number of men in the squad. When you are only seeing 8% chances to succeed, you might as well just use a regular squad or start c firing on it.



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