We need a BIG FAT STICKY... (Full Version)

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Awac835 -> We need a BIG FAT STICKY... (10/12/2004 9:54:46 PM)

That explains the supply system, every time i sit down and read the rules i think i got em right, but when im ingame i don't see the numbers match up.
Like the basic OP a unit gets + the Deliverd OP it gets when in supply don't add up with the movement points and the OP's in reserve don't add up either.

I was getting used to the supply rules in KP, today i got BIN and now im all confused, suddenly there is something called refit, that should give you Max reserve OP's if you don't spend your bullet in a turn with a unit and its in supply.

Also know there is 3 things that governs supply. The overall supply of the country (100%,75%,50%)right?? and then there is the supply gradient, which have a say in how big the burst of the supply trucks are. Then we now have supply points, sources and in between we have supply burst and supply movement, 2 deifferent ways supplyes spread and the second don't allows replacements.

How do you cut of enemy units, if there front line is cut, so you have some units in a pocket, will that cut there supply, even when you don't have them totaly surrounded.

ARRRGHHH, im going nuts [&:]

But its a great game, and i will not give up until i understand it fully
But we newbies need some help becouse it pretty complex.
And sorry doe bad spelling, not native speaker.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: We need a BIG FAT STICKY... (10/14/2004 10:55:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awac835

That explains the supply system, every time i sit down and read the rules i think i got em right, but when im ingame i don't see the numbers match up.
Like the basic OP a unit gets + the Deliverd OP it gets when in supply don't add up with the movement points and the OP's in reserve don't add up either.

I was getting used to the supply rules in KP, today i got BIN and now im all confused, suddenly there is something called refit, that should give you Max reserve OP's if you don't spend your bullet in a turn with a unit and its in supply.

Also know there is 3 things that governs supply. The overall supply of the country (100%,75%,50%)right?? and then there is the supply gradient, which have a say in how big the burst of the supply trucks are. Then we now have supply points, sources and in between we have supply burst and supply movement, 2 deifferent ways supplyes spread and the second don't allows replacements.

How do you cut of enemy units, if there front line is cut, so you have some units in a pocket, will that cut there supply, even when you don't have them totaly surrounded.

ARRRGHHH, im going nuts [&:]

But its a great game, and i will not give up until i understand it fully
But we newbies need some help becouse it pretty complex.
And sorry doe bad spelling, not native speaker.


If I might offer some advice, don't worry about the numbers. The experts have looked all over them, and they are correct. It's much more important to get an overall idea of how the system works.

Section 28 in the manual does cover Supply fairly comprehensively, including the refit rules. If you read that section carefully, you should know enough to use the supply system in the game. For example, you should read the refit section again, as your summary above is not quite right. If you fulfil the conditions in one turn, you an OP bonus at the start of the *next* turn.

As for cutting off supply to a pocket, it may not be necessary to completely surround the enemy units, as you may be able to impose sufficient penalties to prevent their supply from reaching them.

However, you don't get any real information about enemy supply states, until units are isolated, so it's probably best to surround them, just to make sure.

Gregor



Adam Parker -> RE: We need a BIG FAT STICKY... (10/14/2004 2:27:42 PM)

One thing I'm learning the hard way is how the number of enemy steps influencing a ZOC can completely deny supply to some of my sprearhead units. If these units run out of OP's and can't replenish due to enemy ZOC they are effectively stranded begging isolation, until I can break the stalemate. I've got two regiments in the Omaha and Juno sectors in this predicament now. I'm definitely paying more attention to the Supply Planning toggles in the future before making any more breath-taking maneuvers!

I'm also badly losing the fight for Caen [:D] - My 6th Airborne is giving me a taste of Arnhem to come [;)]

Someone on another forum complained that movement out of ZOC may be too easy. Not in this case. Excellent.



Awac835 -> RE: We need a BIG FAT STICKY... (10/14/2004 8:11:11 PM)

I think im getting closer to understandig things now.

Just another question. If i only have one road from a supply source to a supply point and then uses interdiction on that road and the supply point is using supply movement to trace a route back to the supply source and the supply point is out of leg movement from the supply source burst radius. How dos this affect supply. Will you need to bring the total OP penelty from the interdiction up to the OP value of the supply source burst radius to effectivly but of the entier road? or so as an example lets take a interdiction strike that can cover 5 hexes of road, with a penelty of 4 to each hex. that would give a total penelty of 4*5=20 OP's for the supply source. so if it have a burst of 20 or less then it would be cut of at that point.

Am im right or do the interdiction just give some sort of reduction in the supply source OP burst like maximum(green), Regular(orange), minimal(red), when the op penelty gets bellow each burst OP step?

I think im not begining to see how cool this supply system really is to simulate the lack of supply and so on, truly great.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: We need a BIG FAT STICKY... (10/15/2004 3:24:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awac835

I think im getting closer to understandig things now.

Just another question. If i only have one road from a supply source to a supply point and then uses interdiction on that road and the supply point is using supply movement to trace a route back to the supply source and the supply point is out of leg movement from the supply source burst radius. How dos this affect supply. Will you need to bring the total OP penelty from the interdiction up to the OP value of the supply source burst radius to effectivly but of the entier road? or so as an example lets take a interdiction strike that can cover 5 hexes of road, with a penelty of 4 to each hex. that would give a total penelty of 4*5=20 OP's for the supply source. so if it have a burst of 20 or less then it would be cut of at that point.

Am im right or do the interdiction just give some sort of reduction in the supply source OP burst like maximum(green), Regular(orange), minimal(red), when the op penelty gets bellow each burst OP step?

I think im not begining to see how cool this supply system really is to simulate the lack of supply and so on, truly great.


Let's just refresh our memories from the Rulebook.

Supply Source: A Supply Source is an independent supply location, i.e. one that does not have make a Supply Trace to be in supply. Map edge supply locations are always Supply Sources, but Supply Dumps and Drop Zones can also fit into this category.

Supply Point. A Supply Point is a supply location that must make a Supply Trace to a Supply Source before it can supply anything. Supply trucks are Supply Points, although some trucks can supply other trucks, acting as a relay to the ultimate Supply Source.

From your question, there are two elements that can supply a hex. The Supply Source has its own Supply Burst and it will supply a certain number of hexes around itself. Interdiction can affect this by making any road hexes cost more OPs to reach, but its usually not a huge factor.

Normally, Supply Points are more vulnerable to interdiction. They must make a Supply Trace to a Supply Source. Interdiction will make this cost more OPs. A Supply Point can spend up to a certain number of OPs to make the Trace, and still get its Maximum Supply Burst. As the cost of the trace increases, the Supply Point is restricted to Reduced, Minimum and finally no Supply Burst.

The best way to think of it is this. Interdiction between a Supply Point and its Supply Source increases the amount of work that the Supply Point has to do to get its supplies. Increasing that work decreases the amount of effort that the Supply Point can put into distributing the supplies to the hexes around it, and that's why the number of points it has to spend making its Supply Trace affects the number of OPs that it can use to make its own Supply Burst.

Gregor



johanvc -> RE: We need a BIG FAT STICKY... (10/16/2004 3:08:48 AM)

Awac,

To respond to your original question - I've been wondering how the OP numbers work myself and did some testing. This is what I came up with - not saying it's 100% complete, but I think it's close enough to understand what's driving the numbers [8D]

At the *start* of your turn, before moving, substract the "basic OPs" from the "OPs remaining for Regular movement". This is the maximum amount of OPs you'll be able to carry over to the next turn (because, as the manual states, basic OPs cannot be transferred). For example, if you have an infantry unit with 8 basic OPs that starts its turn with 14 OPs available for regular movement, a maximum of 6 can be carried over.

When at the *end* of your turn, after moving, you have unused (non-reserve) OPs remaining (because your unit did not move up to its full allowance), these are transferred over to the next turn subject to the maximum above. But this does *not* mean they will increase your reserve - see below.

When at the *start* of your turn, the "basic" and "delivered" OPs together do not add up to the "maximum OPs for regular movement", any OPs carried over from the previous turn are used to fill in the difference. For example, an infantry unit has 8 basic OPs and 4 OPs delivered, but has a maximum of 14 OPs for regular movement - i.e. your total OPs for that turn would be 12 out of a maximum of 14. If you had unused OPs carried over from the previous turn, 2 will be used (if available) to give the unit its full allowance of 14 OPs.

If after this adjustment (i.e. after "filling up" your regular OPs to the maximum) you still have OPs carried over from the last turn left, these are added to the reserve. If, on the other hand, the OPs carried over did not suffice to fill up your regular movement OPs, OPs from the reserve will be taken to again give the unit its full allowance. Any OPs remaining in the reserve after these adjustments can be used for extended movement.

The big mistake I made at first whas that the reserve is only used when using extended movement - this is not the case. The key is to understand that not fully supplied units, especially mechanized units (which have low basic OPs) will eat up reserve OPs even when simply moving at their full regular allowance. When their reserve runs out (as the "fuel gauge" becomes fully red), they will "slow down" to their basic OP level - for mechanized forces, this is usually only 4, so running out of OP reserve will practically immobilize your unit. Keep an eye on that fuel gauge and get the units back in supply before they grind to a halt! The fastest way to get things filled up is putting them outside contact of enemy troops and in supply, it will then automatically refit if you do not move the unit and do not "use a bullet" (i.e. let the unit rest) for the two following turns (after the first turn the "refill chevrons" will turn gold, after the second it'll be refitted).

I do love the way this new movement system makes assaults come to a grinding halt if they outrun their supplies to far and/or too long - you'll want to make sure you have some fully fuelled up units ready to exploit any breakthroughs, and keep an eye on when to stop the push or even retreat to avoid your units becoming "sitting ducks". As such, keeping spare "bullets" isn't enough - some mobility needs to be kept as well. Seems to perfectly reflect the concerns of blitzkrieg; great new touch, SSG! [:)]

Johan.



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